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Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:59AM (#37817738)
> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules

You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine.

Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retailers here use paper labels—a result of historically-low inflation expectations. It’s easier to implement that complexity at check out than on the shelves. (I’d also guess that America’s credit card use means more check-out stations are digital than in much of the world.)

Add to that a cultural distrust of taxation and government, a decreasing tendency to use cash and a higher income per capita and you have a genuine difference in preferences.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by fransje26 on Monday October 09, 2023 @04:59AM (#37818427)
> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world.

> cultural distrust of taxation and government

> a decreasing tendency to use cash

> higher income per capita

Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper.

> Also, most retailers here use paper labels

Great! Makes it even easier to printout the actual price. 1) Retrieve base price from database 2) Add local tax 3) Add whatever other "hidden" cost is needed 4) Printout label.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 09, 2023 @05:14AM (#37818506)
> Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper

The pieces of paper are in multiple places. The bill is calculated in one place. Doing things in multiple places is more costly and error prone than doing it in one. (Also, the paper being physical means a physical person must update it. The POS can be remotely managed.)

Here is New York State's guide on clothing and footwear taxes [1]. (It's particularly well documented.) If any one of those counties makes a change, you're now proposing someone run through the entire store to update the affected labels or else risk lying about the price. That's manageable for a multinational. It's bonkers for a small shop owner. Instead, their POS is remotely updated (worst case, they get a bulletin to punch in a code) and when the barcode is scanned, the system figures out whether it's $110 or less and if it's really a costume or not.

If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't. The number isn't big enough, and I'm swiping or tapping either way. (Cash-only stores do tend to be tax inclusive, at least in New York, but that's because they're usually not paying the whole tax.) As I said, I can't remember finding it helpful when I travel to tax-inclusive priced countries. Surprising as it may seem, this really is simply a cultural preference. No right answer.

[1] https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by PeterStuer on Monday October 09, 2023 @07:26AM (#37819221)
The store knows what to charge, they chose not to put it on the shelf label. When prices change, people change the shelf label, whether it is paper or ePaper tags is irrelevant to having the tax added in or not. What seems 'bonkers' to you has been standard practice in most of the world for decades.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 09, 2023 @08:03AM (#37819521)
> When prices change, people change the shelf label

This isn't free. That's someone's time and energy spent on something I, as the consumer, don't care about. Why? I'd much rather have that person available to help, ready at the counter or frankly at home or in a park enjoying their life.

What has meaning for you doesn't for me. I don't value having a precise price at selection versus purchase. At all. Like most Americans. That doesn't mean I don't see the value in your argument, just that I reject it as something that matters to me.

> What seems 'bonkers' to you has been standard practice in most of the world for decades

Not remotely comparable in terms of rulebook complexity. Also, income: if you want to find tax-inclusive round pricing in America, go to impoverished neighborhoods. There, every nickel counts and folks pay cash--it makes sense to spend the effort to precisely message pricing ex ante.

Also, in most of the world posted prices either aren't a thing or are completely negotiable. Haggling at the point of sale isn't a thing in day-to-day America.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by hot_gril on Monday October 09, 2023 @09:05PM (#37827467)
I concede that my other comment saying "there's no reason for it not to be [included in the price]" is inaccurate, cause this is a reason. But also, how often does sales tax change that this is a real issue?
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by noahtallen on Monday October 09, 2023 @09:05PM (#37827471)
The workers at a grocery store are already spending time setting and changing price labels across the store on a regular basis. (Such as for the many changing sales most stores have.) They often have a digital, hand-held label printer. It would be extremely simple for that printer to just print the local sales tax on the label.

Not to mention the vast amount of online shopping Americans do, where it would be trivial to include a local sales tax. (Every online store I'm aware of already immediately asks for your location and tells you to search for the nearest location anyways.)

I also reject the idea that most Americans wouldn't value this. I would bet money most Americans would prefer it -- they just aren't aware that other countries are capable of doing things better.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by ramblenode on Monday October 09, 2023 @10:52PM (#37828039)
> This isn't free.

It's not free but it is negligible relative to routine relabelling. How many times do you think the tax rate changes per year? Maybe twice, at most, if the government budget is facing some major upheaval. More likely is every few years. Compared to the number of times the store will put things on sale or change the prices, that is negligible.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by ramblenode on Monday October 09, 2023 @10:44PM (#37828000)
> If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't.

That's not true. I would guess the vast majority of consumers would at least slightly prefer that the tax be included in the display price. The problem is those consumers aren't an organized interest group, whereas retailers are. It's not a "cultural preference"--it's just the inability of the political system to address large but diffuse problems.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by AlchemistCamp on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @01:53PM (#37835226)
I sincerely doubt that. I prefer to know how much of the price is from taxes because of transparency, as I mentioned in another comment on this thread.

Furthermore, literally everywhere I’ve lived in America, I had 3+ local sales tax rates within my typical shopping range and it’s nice to know which areas have lower rates so I can preferentially make larger shopping trips there.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by Sabinus on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:45PM (#37839219)
>I prefer to know how much of the price is from taxes because of transparency, as I mentioned in another comment on this thread.

In the current system, to get that information you have to compare the label cost to the cost you paid. How is that more simple and convenient than looking up sales taxes in your area, or mandating they be displayed on labels in addition to price?

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by graftak on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:45AM (#37841677)
Sales tax is always printed on the receipt so it’s glanceable, often it is itemised too as product types might fall into varying tax brackets.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by lern_too_spel on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:03AM (#37832251)
You can't run a national "$5 footlong" or "dollar menu" national ad campaign if some states charge taxes on prepared food and some don't, and of those states that charge taxes, some require tax inclusive pricing and some don't. Tax-inclusive pricing isn't something that can be solved with a state law.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by graftak on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:54AM (#37841713)
Even if you have a big asterix there for that special tax excluded from the price occasion it will already make lives a lot easier. Such a weird hill to die on.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by lern_too_spel on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:54AM (#37846112)
An even bigger issue is internet purchases and car purchases. Cars are taxed at the local sales tax rate of where the buyer lives. Internet sales are taxed at the state sales tax rate where the buyer lives.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by graftak on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:31AM (#37888027)
Same in Europe where our ‘state-sized’ countries have different taxes but Amazon has no issue applying a 21% sales tax real time when I order from their .de site where a 20% tax is the local norm.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by lern_too_spel on Monday October 16, 2023 @01:04AM (#37896105)
A city is much smaller than a state, and we're talking about advertisements here. Of course they charge you the correct amount.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by trealira on Friday October 13, 2023 @11:35PM (#37877884)
>You can't run a national "$5 footlong" or "dollar menu" national ad campaign if some states charge taxes on prepared food and some don't, [...]

You can, if you change your prices in every state so that with added taxes, it adds up to $5 for the consumer. We don't have to accommodate our system of sales taxes to make it more convenient for national corporations to make $5 foot-long campaigns.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by AlchemistCamp on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @01:46PM (#37835139)
I don’t want taxes hidden inside the price of an item. It’s much better for consumers (and voters) to be aware of how much of each purchase goes to taxes.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by graftak on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:50AM (#37841698)
It’s on the receipt. And everyone where I live knows what the sales tax percentages are (there are two brackets).
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by AlchemistCamp on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:07PM (#37862514)
I have no idea where you live, but it's great that it's on your receipt.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by ramblenode on Monday October 09, 2023 @10:22PM (#37827901)
I've never met an American who prefered the system of not showing the full price on the shelf. The system exists entirely to obfuscate prices and confuse less price-conscious consumers. It is hardly culture.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by fsckboy on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @08:28PM (#37839551)
>The system exists entirely to obfuscate prices

sorry, no, it doesn't. Taxes, by law, must be calculated at the point of sale. A penny on each of 5 items could sum to enough to bump the tax on the overal total by a penny. You're not allowed to "round" that extra tax away by computing the tax individually on the items.

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by graftak on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:55AM (#37841718)
It is culture alright, the US famed capitalist rule the world culture.
Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by kennethrc on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:57AM (#37832918)
> Argentina and how late they dine.

Apropos of nothing, but I loved that about the place

Re:Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law by PeterStuer on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:22AM (#37841547)
I did word that travelling part poorly and you are right to call that out.

Thing is, leaving aside foreigners, there seems to be such an intrinsic contradiction between the 'everyone knows' and the 'it is so complex we can't even put it on the store shelf price label'.

Over here (Europe) for better or worse near 100% store checkouts are digital, regardless of wether you pay with credit or debit card. We get the correct price we will pay displayed on store shelves. We get a breakout of tax on the PoS ticket. In most places we also get a breakout of the price and the promo on the ticket (as in e.g. buy 2 get one free promos).

Yes. I am biased by experience, but I fail to see how not knowing how much you will pay for someting when and where you make the decision to buy it, that is when you take it of the shelf and put it in your cart, can be an advantage you would argue for.