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Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by stathibus on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:37PM (#37803736)
Unfortunately par for the course these days. At least they did remove the article. Citing "editorial standards" is weak sauce though, the point of having editorial standards is so they can be applied by the editor before publication...
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by diggan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:39PM (#37803759)
> At least they did remove the article

Wouldn't it be better to add a correction at the top of the article instead of deleting it?

Deleting it I'd think would just fuel (current or budding) conspiracy theorists, as they can point to something that existed but got removed, rather than something that got corrected.

But in the end, it's probably a loosing battle anyway...

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by Operyl on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:41PM (#37803781)
Adding a correction at the top would just fuel (current or budding) conspiracy theorists, as they can point to something that was, in their eyes, forcibly corrected against WIRED's will.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by Mountain_Skies on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:47PM (#37803853)
So instead they prove the conspiracy folks right that the media is willing to scrub proof of inaccurate reporting.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by Operyl on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:54PM (#37803931)
The point I’m making is that no matter what you do, a conspiracy theorist is going to twist the narrative to fit their world view.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by generalizations on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:23PM (#37804196)
Well, the world view in this case is 'the media lies' - and that's correct in this case (though it wasn't intentional).
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by vkou on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:32PM (#37804284)
Whereas the sources spoon-feeding them this attitude are, of course, unimpeachable. (They don't redact, or admit fault.)

I generally find that anyone expecting error-free perfection in any subjective field from an entire industry can be safely dismissed as a complete idiot. Intelligent people look at the processes that produce outcomes, not the outcomes.

(In this case, the process that produced the outcome was a former DDG employee mailing in an oped of incredibly questionable quality that criticized a DDG competitor, that was eventually pulled. Wired should probably read op-eds before publishing them.)

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by 0ct4via on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:55PM (#37803950)
If they admit it's "inaccurate" / "does not meet [their] editorial standards" then it's hardly "scrubbing proof"...

Admitting it was trash is proof of inaccurate reporting, whether they remove TFA or not

As for the conspiracy folks, they'll think what they want, regardless of evidence presented to them. That's the whole point.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by zo1 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:26PM (#37805226)
Because journalism is not the way to solve this, and we all think that it will.

The way to solve it is for "investigators" to get access to said source code and give us an honest assessment. Get someone neutral, get NDAs in place, have them look at the source in an air-gapped clean room, anonymize DB access, etc etc.

Instead we go around in circles. Journalism at the end of the day then becomes "we got some info that points to X, but we have no proof, and we won't look for it. We'll just wait till someone, somewhere, at some point, who knows when, finds some proof and puts it out in the public, only then will we say it's conclusive. Until then, you all go nuts, especially the conspiracy theorists. Don't worry, we'll ride this gravy train and report on those nut jobs too!".

It's a mess, and I'm not at all surprised that conspiracy-theorists have a field day with it.

Hey, let's get a bounty up so that a whistle-blower from Google comes forward. Maybe Mozilla foundation can take some of that sweet sweet endowment they use for "Social Justice" and pony up to fund this investigative effort. After all they claim to be fighting for a free internet. I'd say this is a much better use of money than paying random DEI consultancies huge speaking fees.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by throw__away7391 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:53PM (#37803924)
I don't know if you've ever had the misfortune of interacting much with conspiracy theorists, but literally whatever happens it always proves their beliefs are correct.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by brookst on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:33PM (#37804295)
Evidence for the claim: proves the claim

No evidence: obviously the evidence is being suppressed, proves the claim

Evidence against the claim: shills obviously trying to control the narrative, proves the claim

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by philipov on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:49PM (#37804950)
I recall an anecdote by a mathematician about his approach to peer-reviewing proofs of theorems. He said he glosses over most of it, but very thoroughly checks anything the author claims to be "obvious" because it's the things that seem obvious that screw people up.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by borski on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:34PM (#37804297)
This. It doesn’t matter what you do, conspiracy theorists can and will justify it as a conspiracy.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:25PM (#37804709)
Had a discussion about Assange the other day (contentious I know but bear with me). I brought up how he had a show on RT, the Russian state media channel, mentioning that it’s pretty bad optics regardless of what one thinks of the dude. They immediately went “no they didn’t that’s got to be a CIA myth.” Hand to god that’s what they said.

I showed him the IMDb and Wikipedia pages for it and a clip. Without missing a beat - remember they literally had never heard this before and have already decided it’s misinformation planted by the CIA - he said “Well it’s an independent show he put on that happened to be shown on RT.”

I mean what can you say to that?

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by anjel on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:40PM (#37804857)
'Happens to be' is doing alot of work in that sentence
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:41PM (#37804883)
Seriously! Like I said, I get it’s a very contentious issue and I’m sure people have varied feelings on this, but to walk into a conversation literally knowing nothing about the topic at hand and then hand waving it away so quickly…I mean there’s no point in even continuing the conversation at that point.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by cultureswitch on Saturday October 07, 2023 @08:37PM (#37806824)
Assange knew every western government was likely to do literally nothing to defend him against the US. In his shoes you'd also probably be drip-feeding information and money to the Russians. Info which should be out in the open anyway.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by wruza on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:15PM (#37804612)
But that’s what any decent conspiracy would do!
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by granzymes on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:05PM (#37804055)
Whether they removed the article or not, I think it’s ridiculous that WIRED didn’t explain why the article was retracted.

They should have mentioned 1) what the article got wrong and 2) that the article was written by a former Duck Duck Go executive who should know better.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by bonestamp2 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:36PM (#37805302)
[delayed]
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by SllX on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:25PM (#37804710)
That would be showing too much respect for or deference to conspiracy theorists, who aren’t really worth the trouble. Copies probably exist in the Internet Archive, archive.is and in PDFs people could have saved when the article was up so it’s not like it truly disappeared. WIRED just took down a bad article that shouldn’t have been published.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by autoexec on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:51PM (#37804971)
Transparency is the key to trust and journalistic integrity. Even an article that was mostly wrong/written from a failed premise should remain accessible with a timestamped correction statement explaining the problem.

Making your mistakes suddenly disappear as if they never happened is tempting, but it's going to leave users feeling gaslit, distrustful, or even just misinformed.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by littlestymaar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @01:44PM (#37803826)
> the point of having editorial standards is so they can be applied by the editor before publication...

“Ain't nobody got time for that”.

The role of journalists is to provide facts, but the business model of media in the internet age is about “creating content” and “engagement” and they don't work well together …

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by vkou on Saturday October 07, 2023 @02:33PM (#37804293)
Even providing facts is a subjective, opinionated process. Which facts are provided, which are left out, which are contextualized, and which are not can completely invert the meaning of a story.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by littlestymaar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:52PM (#37804973)
> Even providing facts is a subjective, opinionated process.

Yes, that's why you need press freedom with multiple point of views. But it is orthogonal to the point I was making.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by jrockway on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:49PM (#37804953)
I have always found this to be a weird take from a forum largely populated by software people. Every piece of software I have ever used has been riddled with bugs and security defects. This despite the fact that we have dedicated sub-fields for both (security engineering / test engineering). So when a journalist notices a bug in their article and has to "retract a release", how is that not what we do every single day?

I think you might just be disappointed in humanity, rather than any particular agency or person. Humans come together to get the right answer eventually; not multiple times a day, every day, without fail. Sometimes the software doesn't do what you want. Sometimes that article has a factual error. Eventually we figure it out. It's not the end of the world.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by soraminazuki on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:39PM (#37805329)
It's also an understandable mistake. The slide the GP mentioned doesn't provide a clear explanation and can be interpreted the way the original article did.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by extra88 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:48PM (#37807719)
An article should not be published based on one person's interpretation of one slide. Basic journalistic standards would require having other sources that corroborated what the writer thought the slide meant.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by andromeduck on Monday October 09, 2023 @06:45AM (#37818982)
It'd be an understandable mistake, for a non proficient English speaker.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by Exoristos on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:23PM (#37805202)
A difference being software engineering is a laughingstock no one expects much of, while worldclass publishing has a past excellence against which it's still frequently judged.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by balls187 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:36PM (#37805307)
I also misunderstood the point—but if I now read correctly—it’s that to err is human, and something that we do as software developers constantly
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by fallingknife on Saturday October 07, 2023 @06:38PM (#37806127)
People expect their software to work perfectly nearly all of the time. And for the most part, it does. So not really sure who you think these people are who think it's a laughingstock.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by zo1 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:18PM (#37805165)
The same way we expect "QA" to pick up those bugs before release?

Think about the opposite. Imagine we pickup a bug in a live application and update it citing "our QA standards". This magical word does not absolve us of the fact that we let a bug through to production. And it's implied that we'll do better next time to pick up this kind of bug.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by embik on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:24PM (#37805207)
The post you are responding to is making the point that even though we have QA, dedicated jobs or even departments for these things … We, as a profession, still fail in releasing bug-free software. And that’s 100% correct.

Is that really something you are challenging? Which pieces of popular software you can think of are bug-free? And are you thinking of more than a handful?

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by zo1 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:43PM (#37805387)
They said "So when a journalist notices a bug in their article and has to "retract a release", how is that not what we do every single day?"

And they themselves were responding to someone criticizing media for using "editorial standards" as an excuse when they "retract a release".

And I explained how we are the same and supposedly strive to not release bad content/software, we just don't get to magically absolve fault with an excuse that "it doesn't meet our QA standards" as an analogy to "editorial standards".

Anywho, the whole thing breaks down when we have to beat it with a stick. It's a discussion, assume a charitable interpretation.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by ankit219 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:19PM (#37805670)
In this case, it's probably justified to have gripes with the editors.

They got an opinion piece with an extraordinary claim about something the writer saw in a slide presented at a trial. She wrote the entire article about it creating theories and then how it needs to be stopped. Not to mention, she had previously worked with a competitive search engine. The central piece of fact checking was seeing that slide, that would have been the second question after "Are you sure you saw something like that?". The entire article hinges on that one slide she saw and what she understood from it.

This is not a case of missing a boundary condition. This is missing the central premise. At any level, it would be inexcusable.

PS: In a sense, as the artifacts are becoming public, i think more such confusions would surface in the coming weeks where merely misunderstanding what is on the slide would lead to a lot of rumors. Probably best we have an initial case and some intuition that this can happen.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by ben0x539 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:19PM (#37805671)
I don't think you should derive a universal QA standard from specific release practices borne out of a specific risk/reward situation that depends on things like your particular business model or lack thereof.

There's a wide spectrum of how fucked your software can be when you release it without it being a huge deal, like if I push a broken release for my hypothetical build system that jumbles the error messages a little that's probably fine, if I push a broken build of the google dot com landing page that's raising a few more sirens and I really shouldn't make a habit of it, if I deploy critically broken firmware to your pacemaker or your crewed rocket ship I should probably be exiled from the field. I imagine there's a similar spectrum for journalists and we can't really figure out where on the spectrum to the article from the OP should be with just analogies to a different field. Complaining about a trend of publications slipping towards the yolo'ier end of the spectrum doesn't seem on its face hypocritical.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by i_am_jl on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:46PM (#37805837)
Retracting an article due to "editorial standards" is, to extend your analogy, like attributing the need for an emergency hotfix to "QA practices".

Editorial standards should stop bad stories from being published. Saying "we retracted this story because it doesn't meet our editorial standards" begs the question "why are you publishing things that don't meet your editorial standards in the first place?"

It doesn't take responsibility for or explain the mistakes in the article. It doesn't state that the article had factual errors. It's a frustrating cop-out. I sincerely hope this is a temporary measure while Wired gets a more comprehensive retraction put together.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by xvector on Saturday October 07, 2023 @06:07PM (#37805948)
Journalists suck. They pretend to be bearers of the truth, and yet go forth with horribly biased and inaccurate claims. Nothing like software which does not wield anywhere close to the same cultural power to control narratives as the news media.
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by pdpi on Saturday October 07, 2023 @06:23PM (#37806041)
We also have the notion that fixing bugs at design time is easier than in dev, which is in turn easier than in prod.

Publications can simultaneously be praised for “rolling back a bad build” while being criticised for letting that build roll out to prod in the first place.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by fallingknife on Saturday October 07, 2023 @06:45PM (#37806152)
Isn't one of the key elements of ethical journalism that you need to ask the subject of your article for comments? I have a hard time believing they asked Google to comment on this piece and didn't get "that is categorically false and if you publish it you will be hearing from out attorney" as an answer. So I don't really see how this one got through unless they didn't ask for comments.

This would be like the SWE equivalent of pushing to production without code review. It's not an excusable mistake like when a bug gets through.

Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by seebs on Saturday October 07, 2023 @08:02PM (#37806642)
I don't know about "need", but it's certainly common to reach out to them... But that doesn't mean that they respond quickly. Google does not have a rep for reliably getting back to people quickly or even at all, and when they do get back to people, they very often just say they can't comment, because there's no way for the people handling the press contact to reach a person who would know what was going on in a predictable manner. (Yeah, that sounds stupid. It is. And yet, nonetheless, you can regularly find that no one at Google can figure out who owns something or knows why it's the way it is.)
Re:Wired has removed "How Google Alters Search Queries" story by omoikane on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:37PM (#37805315)
> having editorial standards is so they can be applied by the editor before publication

Maybe there were lots of articles that were never published due to editorial standards, but we only see the ones that slipped through.