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Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by indigo945 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @05:52AM (#37762948)
Podman is probably close to what you want. It runs "daemonless" - while no containers are running, podman doesn't have a running process either. Also, as long as the containers are run in rootless mode, podman creates no virtual network interfaces. Rootless Podman makes use of network namespaces instead to separate the processes in the container from the host network. Processes on the host cannot see Podman's network namespaces and therefore are completely unaffected by any IP configuration therein.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by alias_neo on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:34AM (#37763208)
This;

Podman is what Docker should have been, for me. Security first, no daemon, more Linux-like behavior (You can manage them with SystemD unit files if you wish) and it supports the same, usual container images you build/use with Docker.

The main part it was lacking is the compose equivalent, but that too is coming along.

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by XorNot on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:22AM (#37763576)
Honestly with quadlet it might be there on the compose front: being able to deploy either as systemd-like files or as Kubernetes manifests probably solves the entire problem in a very nice way (the K8S compatibility is the real magic IMO since it's the defacto cloud ecosystem).
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by alias_neo on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:43AM (#37763759)
I haven't played with any of Podman's Kubernetes YAML stuff yet, but we target Kubernetes.

Does it support higher-level declarations like Deployments and StatefulSets? I'm trying to understand how/if we could use this without having to write new manifests. A (very) quick search didn't clarify it for me.

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by goku12 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @08:03AM (#37763931)
Quadlets just create a systemd unit file to launch containers with podman and have systemd manage its lifetime. Since systemd lacks the ability of controllers like Deployment and StatefulSets, I doubt that quadlets are able to achieve much more.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by eliaspro on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @10:11AM (#37765466)
I'm pretty sure, that cleverly combining various unit types and their capabilities/attributes would allow to cover 90% of what's needed to emulate Deployments and StatefulSets.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by goku12 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @10:18AM (#37765578)
Yes. That's what I assume too.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by Rapzid on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:35AM (#37763680)
Is it coming along? Last I saw they were moving away from the compose Schema to a k8s manifest and... Those are absolutely disgusting.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by timost on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:42AM (#37763753)
You can use docker-compose with podman using podman's docker compatibility API.

See my other comment in a recent thread [0]

[0] : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37661056

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by nine_k on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @08:42AM (#37764254)
(It's fun to note how systemd was an epitome of in-Linux-like software 7-8 years ago, and now it's the opposite. I'm not talking about systemd merits here, just about the change in perception.)
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by xorcist on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @09:51AM (#37765175)
Comparably little harsh criticism has been made for systemd the init system, most has concerned systemd-the-almost-ntp-client and systemd-the-binary-logfile, the various related xml documents, things like that.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday October 08, 2023 @12:03AM (#37807783)
From my understanding, it has serious limitations, for example since it's rootless, it can't bind on port 443
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by irusensei on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:34AM (#37763205)
I find Podman frustrating at times because of how strict is with ACLs, UID maps and its integrations with SELINUX. I've had a chown/chmod -R of my own home folder (for migration purposes) cripple all podman (AND toolbox) related stuff for my user.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by pjmlp on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:50AM (#37763323)
Security is a pain, however cleaning up after the fact is even worse.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by amluto on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @09:34AM (#37764926)
I would argue that the selinux and uid issues with podman are selinux and posix DAC’s fault.

Selinux is neat but is IMO conceptually wrong in a container world. UIDs and are barely better. At most, these mechanisms should confirm that the container as a whole has a given permission, and that’s it.

(Seriously, the major clouds have deprecated per-object permissions on their object stores. IMO they are right to have done so.)

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by nicce on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:39PM (#37768808)
It might feel frustrating, but there is a great reason. It gives you a more secure environment. When Docker just "works", you are unaware of the fact that you have given more permissions than app might actually need, increasing the attack vector.

Podman's use of SELinux prevents and mitigates many of these issues what you will have if somone targets your app.

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by raesene9 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:10AM (#37763485)
you can also use docker rootless if you want that style of networking. Indeed AFAIK docker and podman rootless both use the same networking approach (slirp4netns)
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by nezirus on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:49AM (#37763808)
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by pvorb on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:30AM (#37763638)
To be honest I never even tried out Podman, even though I keep reading positive things about it. But the entire Docker ecosystem is complex enough on its own, so I fear that exchanging the container runtime entirely will cause a lot of problems that I don't know about today.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by goku12 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @07:41AM (#37763738)
Podman has docker-compatible CLI, Dockerfiles and even docker-compose compatibility. It won't be as painful as you worry. So just give it a try. And besides the advantages already mentioned (rootless, no-daemon and isolated network namespaces), podman has some additional nifty features like pods (like in K8s), quadlets (containers managed by systems), compatibility with k8s manifests, etc.
Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by notnmeyer on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:58AM (#37767090)
undeniable that you'll have a thing or two pop up—whether or not it's worth it depends on how much you want to understand. despite differences in how it works, podman _is_ simpler.

the reality though is that you can install both docker and podman, and just start/stop docker as necessary. its easy enough to experiment with podman on a system with docker installed.

imo it's similar to folks that think learning a new shell is a huge undertaking. the reality is you just install the new thing and drop in and out of it as you get comfortable. if it sticks, cool, if not, also cool.

Re:Kata Containers: The speed of containers, the security of... by spandextwins on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:08PM (#37768257)
Isn’t podman just IBMs version of docker?