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Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by p-e-w on Sunday October 01, 2023 @11:48PM (#37733755)
> My understanding is that complex things like statues were not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago.

Huh? The Venus of Willendorf[1] is twice as old, and to my eye displays a higher degree of artistry than the statue shown in the article. Several such Venus figurines have been found in central Europe.

Compared to the intricacy of the Venus' limestone carving, the statue from the article looks downright crude. The idea that it's "not supposed to be possible" to make something like that 12,000 years BP is ridiculous, and I can't imagine where you might have got that impression. Yes, the new statue is life-size, while the Venus is a figurine, but that doesn't necessarily make it any more difficult to manufacture (possibly easier, in fact).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by arp242 on Monday October 02, 2023 @12:24AM (#37733983)
Venus of Willendorf is quite small, and not especially life-like, but similar large statues have been found in the area before, from around the same time (12kya ago). It's not even a unique find, and fits reasonably well(ish) in established chronology and progression (insofar that's possible for pre-history). Pretty much everything the previous poster said is wrong.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by runsWphotons on Monday October 02, 2023 @03:43AM (#37735031)
its not as lifelike as i hoped when i opened. not a Michelangelo.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by Fluorescence on Monday October 02, 2023 @04:56AM (#37735610)
IMHO it's more interesting and a greater achievement than lifelike. To me it's an expression of fertile abundance that shows more intention, more imagination, more desire to communicate, more understanding of form and humanity than a straight depiction would.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by runsWphotons on Monday October 02, 2023 @08:29AM (#37737243)
i think it looks like what you would make if you werent as skilled, didnt have the right rock, or the tools that were as good as later sculptures. but its still neat.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by boppo1 on Monday October 02, 2023 @12:14PM (#37740152)
As an illustrator who has also done some non-negligible sculpting, this kind of stuff is so much easier than 'lifelike realism' that it's not even close.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by arp242 on Monday October 02, 2023 @02:55PM (#37742752)
The problem is, how do you distinguish between "lacked the skills or tools to make a true life-like statue" and "intentionally made something more abstract"?

When I played guitar I liked doing noisy high-distortion stuff because I could play bad guitar and still make it sound kind of okay (to my ears anyway).

Not saying that everyone who plays this type of music is a bad guitar player, because many aren't, but some are.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by quietbritishjim on Monday October 02, 2023 @05:33PM (#37744722)
It reminds me of Oliver Sacks' excellent book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat.

It contains descriptions of several real cases of brain damage, including someone who literally made the mistake in the title of the book. He could still see but was increasing struggling to synthesise understanding of objects from the lines and patterns, culminating in that particular confusion (as he was getting up to leave a consultation with Sacks, he tried to grab his wife to put on his head).

This person was an amateur painter, and his paintings were getting increasingly abstract as his condition worsened. The funny thing is, critics would comment that his art was improving in subtly and insight. In reality, he was losing his grasp of object coherence.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by chrisco255 on Monday October 02, 2023 @08:59AM (#37737503)
The Lescaux cave paintings from 17K YA are remarkable. A prehistoric Sistine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApjgI8Dbk8

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by 31carmichael on Monday October 02, 2023 @10:15PM (#37747118)
looks pretty lifelike to me; like most people I see at Walmart.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by ricardobeat on Monday October 02, 2023 @03:54AM (#37735107)
NAA, but I think what you’re missing is that this Venus statue is something a single person can carve on their own time, anywhere.

Carving a 2-ton statue in-place requires much better and larger tools, and some kind of social organization that values that activity and protects the site.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by maratc on Monday October 02, 2023 @05:31AM (#37735886)
What I think you might be missing is that Venus could be a pet project of a single person, done in their free time over some period.

The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person — many people should be working there for quite a long period of time, while physically staying in the place. Since they were working on the temple complex, (a) they could not be themselves participating in hunter-gathering activities (and we think human societies were engaged with that at the time); and (b) someone else should be providing them with the food, clothes, tools, and everything they need — implying there was some sort of a social structure (aka civilization).

This is what I think GP meant when saying "not supposed to be possible 12,000 years ago".

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by vanderZwan on Monday October 02, 2023 @06:00AM (#37736106)
I fully agree with what you're saying, but I just want add something to your comment in case people might misinterpret this sentence:

> What I think you might be missing is that Venus could be a pet project of a single person, done in their free time over some period.

Yes, a single Venus figure is likely made by a single person. But the Venus of Willendorf is not unique. There are 200 over known "Venus figurines" from a period of 300,000 BC to 11,00 BC. So they were a wide-spread phenomenon indicating some form of shared socio-cultural connection among the early humans despite how far we were spread out and how much lower the population density was compared to now.

This is of course tangential to the point you were making.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by p-e-w on Monday October 02, 2023 @06:28AM (#37736323)
> The statues, especially in the context of the greater site, could not be made by one person

Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves.

> they could not be themselves participating in hunter-gathering activities

Why not? Hunting and gathering doesn't occupy all of a person's time. I see no reason whatsoever to assume that those sculptures weren't created by part-time artists.

> implying there was some sort of a social structure (aka civilization)

Social structure exists even in apes, and is not at all synonymous with what the term "civilization" is usually taken to mean.

As a sibling commenter has explained, there is nothing substantially new in this archeological find, and it fits well into our existing model of how people lived back then. Claims of an incoming paradigm shift triggered by this find lack any substance.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by maratc on Monday October 02, 2023 @07:01AM (#37736583)
> Why not? Sculptors sometimes make dozens of sculptures per year, by themselves.

Sculptors today are stationary and they depend on money (a mark of a civilization) and tools (same) and supermarkets (same) and demand for their work (economic surplus; same). Leonardo da Vinci, if he was a part of hunter-gatherer society (which is mobile), would not be able to paint or invent, for he would be busy with gathering (or growing, or hunting) his own food most of his time; he also would not have access to paper or canvas or colors or brushes.

> I see no reason whatsoever to assume that those sculptures weren't created by part-time artists.

As mentioned, hunter-gatherers are mobile at least part-time, because they go from where some food grows today, to where some other food roams tomorrow, to where yet other food swims the day after.

> Social structure exists even in apes

And bees, and ants; but not the kind that allows a big part of a society (capable adults) to engage in activities that are not directly related to gathering food, growing children, or fighting, but creating temples and art. A group of hunter-gatherers can provide for themselves, their children, and maybe their elders or sick (as long as these are mobile). They can even accommodate a leader or a shaman here and there; but not an apparently big group of able adults that do not hunt and do not gather and do not fight and do not move but rather sit in one place and build a temple and statues.

> there is nothing substantially new in this archeological find

Gobekli Tepe have completely changed our view of the development of the human societies, as we have previously believed the first civilization (Sumerians) to be as recent as 5,000-4,000 BCE (or 6-7 kya). This hints at a civilization twice as old as previously believed.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by Retric on Monday October 02, 2023 @07:31AM (#37736831)
Hunter gatherer’s had a lot of free time. In reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores. That seems similar to us except we exclude tasks like grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning dishes, etc from what we consider ‘work’.

They move around, but would return to the same locations regularly thus potentially spending years in one location over their lifetime. Plenty of time to make dozens of life sized statues.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by matkoniecz on Monday October 02, 2023 @08:24AM (#37737203)
> In reasonably fertile area they can spend ~15 hours per week on food and ~15-20 hours per week on domestic chores.

on what you base this one? (from what I remember this time would not be even to even produce clothes - unless it is for area of world where no clothing is needed?)

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by nyrikki on Monday October 02, 2023 @09:03AM (#37737537)
There is a very large difference not being able to produce clothes and not finding clothing that happens to be preserved.

Currently the guesses are 40,000 to 3 million years ago.

These people in this article are just as intelligent as modern humans.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by defrost on Monday October 02, 2023 @09:11AM (#37737607)
There are rock art painting depicting details on ceremonial costumes that date back 18,000 years BP, so clothing goes back at least that far.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37733157

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by Retric on Monday October 02, 2023 @09:24AM (#37737746)
1960’s studies of the Bushmen one of the last remaining hunter gatherer groups had roughly that much time spent working. They really spent quite a lot of time working on hobbies and socializing.

Processing animal skins is also a lot faster than weaving. Clothing is ~170,000 years old, weaving is very recent by comparison.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by thelittleone on Monday October 02, 2023 @07:18AM (#37736721)
The artist had a vision to build a human like figurine and that one day, future beings would debate its origin on some magic communication system.
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by permo-w on Monday October 02, 2023 @05:39AM (#37735941)
you're trying to argue that an 11cm tall figurine with no facial features is a civilisational achievement on par with a massive temple complex full of metres tall sculptures, reliefs and symbols that would require significant societal organisation: protection, education, food surplus, likely division of labour

the Venus of Willendorf could indicate some of those things, but it equally could have just been made by one especially advanced human

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by bazoom42 on Monday October 02, 2023 @05:54AM (#37736057)
Nobody is arguing that. You are wildly fighting strawmen.

But the claim that “complex things like statues” were “not possible” is clearly BS.

Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by edgyquant on Monday October 02, 2023 @08:10AM (#37737108)
No it isn’t, and a small figurine is specifically not a statue
Re:12,000-year-old realistic human statue was unearthed by p-e-w on Monday October 02, 2023 @06:39AM (#37736421)
> the Venus of Willendorf could indicate some of those things, but it equally could have just been made by one especially advanced human

Hundreds of such figurines have survived to the present day, so tens of thousands must have been produced. They used materials transported over 1000+ kilometers. Clearly, those were made by a large-scale network of artists learning from one another, part of a pan-European culture – not by a random genius doodling around, otherwise they wouldn't be so similar to each other.

It's also pretty obvious from looking at the figurine that this wasn't the artist's first work. They probably had to make hundreds such statuettes before achieving this level of detail, so they were likely at least part-time professionals.