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Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by n4r9 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:41AM (#37691229)
The first two paras I agree sound fairly likely.

Regarding the second para, the interesting part for me is: how do these companies determine which are the unproductive devs? My impression so far is that senior management has no way of measuring this, given how little data is provided to back up decisions to RTO.

Not so sure about the third para. Why would one company be more ahead of the game than any other, if indeed LLMs are providing this supposed boost?

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by oblio on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:43AM (#37691260)
They don't. They basically go by highest salaries and various arbitrary measures such as unprofitable division, virtual location, etc.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by JAlexoid on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:16PM (#37691776)
Sorry, but mass layoffs aren't exactly the most rational ones.

There's a lot of "you have to cut X off your salary budget", pick whoever you want. Then it's up to the managers to pick, very subjectively, who they want to work with the most.

FFS - I managed to dodge 4 layoffs at a startup, including my whole department being cut wholesale. My managers always kept me, even though I wouldn't call myself the "best" or "the cheapest". All of it just boils down to one thing - I'm the one that whoever manages me can rely on. Just that... being reliable.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by n4r9 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:41PM (#37692163)
That makes sense. In lieu of a reliable objective measure of an employee's impact, the next best thing is to trust the managers judgement. I would still question how effective this is at selecting the "unproductive" workers; I guess it really depends on how good the managers are.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by woobar on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:03PM (#37691572)
> how do these companies determine which are the unproductive devs?

The senior management delegates. At every moment your direct manager knows whom they are willing to part ways with if asked. Even if everyone on the team is great there is always some criteria (costs, impact on important project, institutional knowledge) that sets some people apart.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by paxys on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:46AM (#37691293)
It's not possible to measure with 100% accuracy, but let's not kid ourselves every company and every division can easily pick out the bottom 10-15% of devs who have close to zero real impact. The actual number in fact is likely far greater than that.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by JohnFen on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:30PM (#37691999)
> every company and every division can easily pick out the bottom 10-15% of devs who have close to zero real impact.

Can they? In my experience, they don't tend to do this when it comes to deciding who to lay off. I assumed this was because they can't tell who the bottom 10-15% are.

Team members can tell, but can upper management?

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by bcrosby95 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:51AM (#37691375)
Anecdote coming up, but when Google laid off a bunch of people those that I know that worked there said the most critical people on their teams were the ones let go.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by paxys on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:54AM (#37691409)
And yet there has been no operational impact at Google since the layoffs...so maybe they weren't so critical after all?
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by outworlder on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:21PM (#37691851)
> And yet there has been no operational impact at Google since the layoffs...so maybe they weren't so critical after all?

How do you even know that?

Usually the only way that you will see that, as a customer, is when the people who left are unable to keep up with all the firefighting and things ultimately explode. Either with outages or a security breach.

You can accumulate a _lot_ of tech debt before customers notice. For smaller companies, that's often a fatal amount of debt.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by lesuorac on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:15PM (#37691759)
I mean people can be critical without being load bearing.

If you decide to stop paying your water bill you don't lose service that same day. Typically these layoffs either cause or are a sign of stagnation and then some scrappy startup starts eating away at your market share.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by izacus on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:00PM (#37691525)
What do you mean "no operational impact"? How did you measure that? People on this site are constantly complaining how horrible the Google services became.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by JAlexoid on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:19PM (#37691819)
Over the last 3+X years, not suddenly after 1-2 years of layoffs.

I can bet that if you bring Google Reader up, you'll get a lot more complaining - than any "horrible Google services" topic.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by izacus on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:42PM (#37692171)
Layoffs were 6 months ago.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by paxys on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:22PM (#37691853)
Google services became worse in periods when they doubled headcount year over year than when they did layoffs.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by izacus on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:42PM (#37692176)
Again, how did you measure that? Because that sounds like the same kind of MBA crock.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by paxys on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:43PM (#37692197)
How do you measure everything you are claiming?
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by n4r9 on Tuesday October 03, 2023 @11:37AM (#37753300)
In my opinion, if you haven't measured something then it's kinda disingenuous to make objective-seeming quantifiable claims about it. Especially without including a qualifier like "in my experience... " or "I'd speculate that... ".
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by kyleee on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:15PM (#37697732)
Hah - you never know! Maybe they failed to innovate a way to cram another above the fold ad onto the SERP page due to laying off too many of their “best” people
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by n4r9 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:19PM (#37691814)
This feels like an appeal to intuition. I have no doubt that senior management believes they can do this accurately, but I'm not sure why I ought to agree.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by jmerz on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:48AM (#37691319)
The intersection between politically/socially unpopular and low impact.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by NotSuspicious on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:57AM (#37691463)
in my experience is greater than the intersection between the politically/socially popular and low impact.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by otteromkram on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:48AM (#37691323)
Developers usually follow scrum frameworks, so productivity could easily be measured by overall activity, number of issues closed, merge requests completed, etc.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by JAlexoid on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:22PM (#37691856)
That's literally the last thing that managers look at, when it comes to making a layoff decision.

Never have I ever been the person with highest "overall activity, number of issues closed, merge requests completed, etc.", yet I have not been laid off in a very long time.

Last time I thought I was getting laid off, I misread the manager's comments as PIP.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by danjac on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:56AM (#37691458)
That's about as silly a measure as number of lines of code produced.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by KronisLV on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:24PM (#37691902)
> That's about as silly a measure as number of lines of code produced.

How else would you measure how much work someone does, other than by how much tracked work that's attributed to them there is?

The people using these indicators probably don't care about someone who might have fewer closed issues but instead is helping out 5 people work more efficiently, but rather about people who are constantly shipping measurably less than others, stack ranking and all - in their minds, development should be viewed as some widget factory.

Just look at what happened to agile and how SAFE ended up: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/agile-at-scale

That's also how you get attempts to turn some abstract complexity evaluation (story points) into hours that could be billed to a client ahead of time, even though it probably shouldn't and doesn't work like that.

Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by robertlagrant on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:36PM (#37692086)
Ease of measurement is not enough. I can drive badly under the speed limit, so even though speed is easy to measure, it's not nearly good enough to evaluate my driving.
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by mulmen on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:32PM (#37692034)
[delayed]
Re:Epic Games is laying off 16% of its staff by ResearchCode on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:02PM (#37694102)
The software engineers working on the best projects don't follow "scrum" frameworks. Where are the story velocity ticket points in Linux kernel development?