News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Tao of Programming by encomiast on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:34PM (#37680055)
I was thinking of sharing this with some younger colleagues on slack and paused. Is this a little culturally insensitive by today's standards? I work with someone from China and have no idea what their thoughts on using the Tao like this would be. On the other hand, maybe I'm being overly sensitive.
Re:The Tao of Programming by highwind on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:51PM (#37680286)
I'm Korean and if I were to write an article titled "Program like the cowboys of old west" (I've no clue what that article will be about but), would Americans be offended?

Within Korean culture, Doh (도) is a same concept as Tao but I'm not offended.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

Re:The Tao of Programming by dhosek on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:59PM (#37680414)
The big difference is that Tao has religious overtones to it, while cowboys of the Old West, doesn’t. I think OP was more concerned about the fact that this is grabbing something out of another culture and potentially misusing it or using it in a way that others might not approve. A perhaps more apropos analogy might be The Ten Commandments of Programming, which would be OK with most people, although the Torah of Programming, which employed Jewish stereotypes in its telling would be more problematic. And having typed that, this is where the potential issue with the article could lie: less in the title and more in the body and whether it employs stereotypes or culturally insensitive appropriations.
Re:The Tao of Programming by foobarian on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:34PM (#37680894)
Throw in some references to the Islamic prophet and you'd be way in inappropriate territory then.
Re:The Tao of Programming by Pannoniae on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:54PM (#37682570)
Ten Akhams of Programming maybe?
Re:The Tao of Programming by gopher_space on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:43PM (#37684976)
Isn’t that basically the first edition of Wall’s “Programming Perl”?
Re:The Tao of Programming by bafe on Thursday September 28, 2023 @01:43AM (#37685687)
Something like side effects being haram?
Re:The Tao of Programming by lioeters on Thursday September 28, 2023 @06:49AM (#37687767)
Fundamentalist functional programmers..
Re:The Tao of Programming by mighmi on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:37PM (#37684095)
The 10 commandments used to be used a lot e.g. http://textfiles.com/100/tencoms.pro
Re:The Tao of Programming by forgotpwd16 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:20PM (#37680702)
>Program like the cowboys of old west

That's a very cool title for an article.

Re:The Tao of Programming by l33t7332273 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:36PM (#37680931)
“Real gunslingers chase down rouge threads and kill them with their bare hands while the operating system and all its logs crumble around them.”
Re:The Tao of Programming by rvbissell on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:54PM (#37682576)
> rouge threads

"The red threads are not the issue here, dude! ...Also, dude, that's not the preferred nomenclature. 'Native threads', please."

Re:The Tao of Programming by jacinda on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:38PM (#37684525)
The Night Watch: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf

> Even as we speak, systems programmers are doing pointer arithmetic so that children and artists can pretend that their x86 chips do not expose an architecture designed by Sauron.

> You might ask, “Why would someone write code in a grotesque language that exposes raw memory addresses? Why not use a modern language with garbage collection and functional programming and free massages after lunch?” Here’s the answer: Pointers are real. They’re what the hardware understands. Somebody has to deal with them. You can’t just place a LISP book on top of an x86 chip and hope that the hardware learns about lambda calculus by osmosis.

Really, I recommend everything by James Mickens every chance I get: https://mickens.seas.harvard.edu/wisdom-james-mickens

Re:The Tao of Programming by kazinator on Thursday September 28, 2023 @03:25PM (#37694471)
The thing is, the pointers that hardware understands are safer than C pointers.

C pointers have undefined behaviors which are not found in the machine language.

For anything that can go wrong with C pointers (and other types) in the abstract, there is some computer out there where it is an issue. That computer is usually in a museum; it's not one that understands a popular instruction set.

The problem is that the omissions in the definition of behavior done because of portability across machines turn into an optimization hint. Things that were once left undefined because they worked in reliable, but machine-spcific ways became booby traps.

To be sure your code will work with optimizations, you have to write it as if it had to be portable to machines you don't care about.

You don't have that problem in assembly language, or not on the same scale. You sometimes worry about different members of the same instruction set family, and that's about it.

Re:The Tao of Programming by HerculePoirot on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:17PM (#37681453)
"Cracking Code on the Frontier: Lessons from the Cowboys of the Old West"

https://pastebin.com/DhdHsR3i

Re:The Tao of Programming by matheusmoreira on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:26PM (#37682905)
See you cyberspace cowboy...
Re:The Tao of Programming by cglong on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:54PM (#37680337)
> if I were to write an article titled "Program like the cowboys of old west" (I've no clue what that article will be about but)

It'd be about this! :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_coding

Re:The Tao of Programming by Jtsummers on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:56PM (#37680357)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_coding

And as an American, I would not be offended. Cowboy coders might be if the article is approaching it from the derogatory perspective.

Re:The Tao of Programming by furyofantares on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:46PM (#37683702)
> "Program like the cowboys of old west" (I've no clue what that article will be about but)

Probably about doing things without modern sensibilities of safety precautions, skipping normal testing procedures to fix an issue quickly, editing the live production server, stuff like that.

Re:The Tao of Programming by pgeorgi on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:09AM (#37685890)
I guess a closer analogy would be an article about file systems called "The sermon of the mount", or something.

"The ten commandments of ..." is a popular trope (https://medium.com/byte-sized-code/the-ten-commandments-of-p..., https://itnext.io/the-10-commandments-to-survive-software-de..., https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/ten-commandments.html, and so on and so on), too...

Seems all harmless enough, but I suppose the risk is that when you use imagery of a different culture, you don't know what is held near and dear to people from within that culture, that you might twist out of context in a hurtful way.

Re:The Tao of Programming by zephyrfalcon on Thursday September 28, 2023 @04:29AM (#37686881)
I would like to read such an article...
Re:The Tao of Programming by aseo on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:10PM (#37680574)
Eh, I probably wouldn't bat an eye, unless if you had a reputation of being culturally insensitive. If you wanna play it safe, you can postmark "... and yes, I agree, it is a bit gimmicky."
Re:The Tao of Programming by morelisp on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:45PM (#37681056)
Not knowing enough about the thing to know if it's culturally-insensitive is largely what makes it culturally insensitive. You could fix that, but it's easier to stoke random coals on message boards.
Re:The Tao of Programming by encomiast on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:29PM (#37681602)
This is not a fair take. To know enough about something like a different religion is not something you just go fix. It's not like reading the Wikipedia page on Taoism will give me the cultural context to evaluate how a joke about Taoism will make people feel. Give how often otherwise smart people make insensitive remarks about classes of people they should be familiar with (at least in the US, like women, native Americans, Mexicans, etc) I suspect "fixing it" is harder that you realize and an easier way is to simply ask (which I did).
Re:The Tao of Programming by burnished on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:13PM (#37681398)
Making people feel bad is what makes something culturally insensitive. Gaining the perspective necessary to tell when that might be the case isn't so simple that you should sum it up as 'you could fix that'. As you well know it can be nuanced.

Worse, it just occurred to me that you're chastising some one for asking questions in order to 'fix that'. This isn't a 'just asking questions' guy topic so there is really no reason to doubt motives.

Re:The Tao of Programming by raincole on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:51PM (#37681850)
You're overthinking it by a lot. Tao is not an inherently religous concept, at least for most people. Actually the use of "The Tao of..." (...之道) is somewhat common in modern writing.

Source: as a native speaker.

Edit: that being said you might not want to share this book with junior programmers. Not because it's offensive, but that they might think you're a snob.

Re:The Tao of Programming by jfk13 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:39PM (#37682389)
I guess it's no more insensitive than writing a book titled "The ___ Bible" (for your choice of language or topic... there are plenty of examples).
Re:The Tao of Programming by dionian on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @11:51PM (#37685036)
I don't think it would be culturally insensitive. It's not really a widely practiced religion, and the word is a generic word in chinese that applies to other religions. Jesus said 'i am the way truth and life', they use Tao to translate Way in the chinese bible.
Re:The Tao of Programming by pyinstallwoes on Thursday September 28, 2023 @01:06PM (#37692548)
You're being overly sensitive.