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Re:People who still rely on paper by gspencley on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:59PM (#37648850)
I've worked in tech as a software engineer developing web applications for 25 years and I'm one of these people.

For note taking, I prefer pen and paper. For diagramming and brainstorming, I prefer a physical whiteboard. For non-work related scheduling, I prefer marking things on the physical calendar hanging on my wall... or sometimes I'll reach for a post-it note.

For bills, I prefer that my company mail me a paper bill. Especially if accessing the e-bill requires me to have an account with a web app and enable MFA and change my password every 90 days and always have Okta give me problems when I want to check my bill and thus need to jump through these hoops those whopping 12 times per year that I need this information.

Maybe it's because I see how the sausage is made. Maybe it's because I use some sort of eletronic device all day for work. But the last thing I want to do when I need to jot something down quickly is reach for a phone or a laptop. Heck, most of the time I don't even remember (or care) where I left my phone.

Re:People who still rely on paper by sixstringtheory on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:16PM (#37649081)
Same, iOS developer here. Maybe if software were treated less like fashion that had to constantly be updated, resulting in a neverending revolving door of bugs and new waves of learning curves, and instead like a focused tool, it could catch up more to paper.

There are absolutely benefits to software over paper but they feel hamstrung by the constant desire to roll out the next UI paradigm. Sooner or later the set of constraints between device, OS and app versions forces an upgrade. Security updates should be the only reason to even hint at that possibility IMO.

Maybe I’m just too close to the problem. If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash, and replacing the pen/ink has a real, nonzero environmental cost. I’m not sure how to amortize the costs of device manufacture and software development across all bugs, and compare that to the costs/benefits of pen and paper. There is some shade of rose on my glasses, no doubt.

I need more information, but I sense it’s not the kind of information that is important to many people, and especially corporations, to gather.

Re:People who still rely on paper by galdosdi on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:05PM (#37649813)
> If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash

Interesting analogy. I think a closer analogy to a pen running out of ink and having to grab another pen, is a laptop battery running low and having to be plugged in.

Re:People who still rely on paper by wnkrshm on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:37AM (#37658395)
I feel it's also a scaling issue: If you wanted to do all of the digital bookkeeping of today on paper, that would be perhaps impossible. I don't think personal note-taking is in any way a large contribution to paper use.

I do art on paper and even I don't go through 500 pages in a year. It's at work, things like 60 page reports that need to be printed for submission (and then get printed 2x or 3x again because you can replicate it).

The ease of printing documents is the culprit, you can just replicate large physical artifacts again and again. You can't do that with your personal notes that probably only exist as unique artifacts and maybe get scanned into a digital archive.

Re:People who still rely on paper by rpowers on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:23PM (#37649183)
I'm in the same situation as you. Though I think the major factor is that the physicality of handwriting the notes helps me.
Re:People who still rely on paper by the_snooze on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:52PM (#37649637)
Paper just works. Whether it's for notes, menus, or voting, paper has a lot of really desirable properties: it's cheap, easily understood, minimal room for external dependencies or BS.

The moment you introduce software and internet connectivity is the moment you invite fragility and inscrutability.

Re:People who still rely on paper by galdosdi on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:13PM (#37649929)
The security properties are also really really different, and really intuitive, and quite strong too: if you have physical possession you have total access, otherwise none at all.

With a computing device, only if you are certain there is no wifi/bluetooth/cellular/etc hardware inside the device, can you have a similar trust. And the days are rapidly coming when there's no such thing as a device without such hardware, not even a watch.

With computing devices, you do get the ability to encrypt data at rest, so for example, a locked physical paper diary is less secure in that sense than an encrypted text file. But the possible number of actors that would attempt to break the security for a physical paper document is much lower, only whoever is nearby, not everyone on the entire internet.

If I had something I really didn't want to get out, these days, I'd be much more likely to recommend the use of a notebook in a safe than an encrypted file on a laptop or phone or something. It doesn't matter how encrypted it is if my device gets compromised.

(If it had to be electronic, it'd be a laptop with no working networking hardware, in a safe.)

Re:People who still rely on paper by araes on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:52PM (#37651862)
ChangeLog - Paper - Sept 2023

Good news everyone, Paper supports MSPen 2.3.4.5.3.2...., GPen 1.10.1.0.11 "Lumpsucker", iPen 4.2.0 (8 new colors!), and the AmaWEbLumberPen (AWELP)

We're happy to report we've solved the issue of Paper randomly vanishing from your house, and reappearing on your roof.

Security exploits with D4r|<9@nc1l and Y+e()v+ have been discovered, and we're working on a fix. In the meantime, please update your Paper password (remember not to write it down)

Minor issues with Paper flickering (and in a limited user group causing epilepsy seizures and incontinence) have been mitigated.

We're aware of Paper occasionally causing i#Desk models to collapse, and working to close the loop.

We're also happy to report we've been sold to ShredderCo.! Congratulations to the team for going the extra mile, and we expect a bright future in their exciting and challenging area of business.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/16hqcly/good_news_ev...

Re:People who still rely on paper by TapWaterBandit on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:04PM (#37649792)
Amazon removing 1984 on people's kindles all the way back in 2009 was a wake-up call. Digital media/content is open to revision in a way that physical media/content is not.

I have swung back around and now buy many physical books/blurays/etc for things I really love or think are important because my faith that companies/govt won't decide I cant have that version anymore is very low.

Re:People who still rely on paper by dieselgate on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:55PM (#37650472)
"..the simplest thing that works but not any simpler"
Re:People who still rely on paper by chongli on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:32AM (#37659039)
Pencil and paper is also excellent for doing math. Get all the distractions out of the way and it’s just you and the problem you’re working on. Figure it out with a pencil and paper and then go to the computer to write the code to implement the algorithm or calculate the result from the equation you derived or whatever else you were doing. Too many kids have such negative experiences with math in school that they never want to touch a pencil and paper again after they graduate. To me, that’s a real tragedy.

I just love the smell of a freshly sharpened pencil made with good quality wood and the feel of it gliding across the paper. There’s a friction and give to it that you can’t get with a touch screen made of hard glass. No matter how good the stylus or what coating you put on the screen, it’ll never have the (cushiony, slightly rough but smooth) feel of a good writing pad or notebook.

And of course it’s fairly easy to digitize your handwritten scribbles, if that’s what you want to do. I just use a scanner app on my phone and take a picture. The app detects the borders of the page and corrects the geometry automatically. I also have it convert the colours down to 1-bit for maximum contrast and to get the background solid white. But that’s only when I need to send it somewhere, otherwise I don’t bother scanning.

Re:People who still rely on paper by HPsquared on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:03PM (#37649779)
I'm the same, I think it's literally because I used pen and paper all day in school and that's just what I'm used to.
Re:People who still rely on paper by hypertexthero on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:13PM (#37649941)
Ditto.

Hate is a strong word, and I hate typing on phones or tablets by trying to hit small shapes behind glass with the tips of my fingers.

I like the feel of pencils, particularly softer ones like 2B, 3B, or 4B, on paper, preferably those with texture like recycled brown paper that is often used as a tablecloth in Italian trattorias, the good ones, that aren’t too expensive.

The smell of pencil lead and paper and the sound that a pencil marking paper makes both help me absorb and remember things.

Betty Edwards wrote Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, and Frank R. Wilson wrote The Hand: How Its Use Shapes the Brain, Language, and Human Culture. Both warmly recommended.

Re:People who still rely on paper by Projectiboga on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:39AM (#37659144)
Writing uses a broader range of your brain, as the information goes through more circuits as you process language to writing. Typing is somehow less mentally involved. There was a study comparing students typing, recording or writing during the lecture, the written notes cohort supposedly learned the best.
Re:People who still rely on paper by spacemadness on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:18PM (#37650003)
Throwing another anecdotal example: Everyone in the gym looks at me like I’m twice my age jotting down my lifts in my notebook. It’s so much less stressful than navigating BS mobile UI stat entry between sets. I say that as someone who develops mobile UI on a daily basis. It’s hard to mistype with a pen.
Re:People who still rely on paper by clnq on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:30PM (#37650170)
This is so true. I used to carry around a reporter's pocket notepad. It was great for noting my thoughts as I was listening to podcasts or audio books, and I recommend trying it to anyone who's thinking about it. With that said, I did feel like a black sheep using it as people would stare quite often.
Re:People who still rely on paper by clnq on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:21PM (#37650052)
Pen and paper doesn't have many failure modes. Put it in a fireproof safe, and it will outlive most digital media. No hacker in a foreign country will steal it, no one will encrypt it, no cloud provider will lose it, and no government will read it, no SSD will byte-rot it. There's really not much to be said against pen and paper.
Re:People who still rely on paper by jjav on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:21PM (#37650831)
Indeed. I have family books from the 1800s and photo albums from the early 1900s. Zero effort was put into preserving these, they were just left on a shelf, occasionally moving from generation to generation.

Except for the most obsessive & technically skilled archivists, nobody will have any photos/documents from today in 100-150 years.

Re:People who still rely on paper by fragmede on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:07PM (#37653016)
Fireproof safe's, aren't. A thief could steal it out of your house, you can't access it on the go, it'll get water damaged and mold and rot. The ink will fade. You won't have a drive to read the floppy disk/CD-rom/DVD/USB-A flash drive. Cloud and digital isn't the be all and end all, but there are plenty of problems with paper.
Re:People who still rely on paper by gspencley on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:20PM (#37653121)
> you can't access it on the go

You can to the same extent that you can access a smart phone on the go. You just have to remember to bring it with you. Given how often I "forget" my smart phone at home, the "access anywhere" isn't a huge selling feature for most things to me. While I do use web-based email, I tend to prefer things like paper tickets for events and paper receipts because I actually find them to be more convenient than digital. This is because having to have a smart phone with me at all times that could get lost, stolen, damaged, malfunction etc. and is a single point of failure in the event thereof is the polar opposite of my definition of convenience.

No one has made the argument that paper is without problems. Only that it has way fewer problems than digital. That, and that the businesses and shills that are trying to force digital-everything are evil monsters that belong in the same rung of hell typically reserved for murderers and people who talk at movie theatres.

Re:People who still rely on paper by fragmede on Friday September 29, 2023 @04:22AM (#37700792)
That seems like a personal problem.
Re:People who still rely on paper by tomrod on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:13PM (#37653061)
Eventually, but all those are likely less likely than the electronic degradation. That said, keeping paper organized is hard.
Re:People who still rely on paper by vlark on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:18PM (#37653506)
And yet for thousands of years we managed just fine with paper & ink.
Re:People who still rely on paper by 6510 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:13AM (#37655105)
Engraving things in [hard] stone is the winning technology. When we chose to use anything less the information cant be very important.
Re:People who still rely on paper by II2II on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @05:55AM (#37656913)
Mold is a failure mode for floppy disks and water is a failure mode for many electronic storage media or the tools we use to read them.

I suspect that many people associate durability with electronic media simply because it becomes obsolete so rapidly that we don't experience it in the same way. We don't know whether that dusty floppy disk or CD-R is readable since we disposed of our last computer with a drive, or we associate the failure of a flash drive with a cheap drive rather than the intrinsic properties of the media, or we attribute it to abuse. We rarely have the opportunity to use something until it is worn out, or pick it up after a quarter century in storage.

Modern media is incredibly fragile. The chief advantage it has (in terms of longevity) is its digital nature, in our ability to reproduce it exactly. Yet that is only an advantage if we actively maintain our archives.

Re:People who still rely on paper by yomlica8 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:33AM (#37658349)
One unexpected issue with digital media is changing manufacturing quality and an inability to identify it until it is to late. Early stage floppy disks and CDs actually were pretty reliable but by the tail end so much cost saving had happened in manufacturing they'd turned to crap.

The same thing has happened with flash drives already, how do you identify a good flash drive? If you aren't careful you'll end up with a counterfeit but even the genuine articles have shaky reputations and manufacturers change the internal parts all the time.

Re:People who still rely on paper by II2II on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:19AM (#37658878)
I definitely agree with the difficulty in identifying reliable products, and it is made even more difficult due to marketing (e.g. conflating the "quality materials" of the shell with the overall reliability of the product).

That said, such things did happen in the past. Paper is the classic example since the manufacturing process affected its longevity, yet many other materials are graded based upon their properties.

Re:People who still rely on paper by neuralRiot on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:25PM (#37665357)
> I suspect that many people associate durability with electronic media simply because it becomes obsolete so rapidly that we don't experience it in the same way.

Or probably because paper or other media has already stood the trial of time, there are some papyrus dating around 2500BC that’s more than 4000 years ago, now think if any of the tools needed for current media will be available 4000 years from now.

Re:People who still rely on paper by hoseja on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:08AM (#37657018)
Modern paper will disintegrate over time, something with acid.
Re:People who still rely on paper by vixen99 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:18AM (#37658866)
And no need for it. I don't think I have any books printed in the first half of the 20th century with yellowing pages. That's not the case with certain publishers in the recent past who, I guess, have gone for cheap printing options.
Re:People who still rely on paper by jmopp on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:16PM (#37661540)
Most printer-paper you can buy in a shop is acid-free. I still have high-school printouts from 20 years ago that show no signs of degradation. I don't think any of my own digital assets have survived from 2003 — granted I was a teenager at the time, so I did not engage in the greatest archival practices. But see the comment above: all you need to preserve paper is to make sure it doesn't get damaged, and simply eyeballing it will confirm whether or not it has.
Re:People who still rely on paper by DharmaPolice on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:19AM (#37657119)
I think this depends on lifestyle. I know that if there's vital information on a piece of paper I need to photograph it (or type it up) and email it to myself because the paper will be lost/destroyed before too long. I could invest in a fireproof safe but it'd be another thing to move and take up space which I don't have a huge amount of. Something emailed to multiple email providers and copies stored in Dropbox, etc is unlikely to lost.

And when you're dealing with a high quantity of information, good luck searching through thousands of sheets of paper for something.

Re:People who still rely on paper by hnthrowaway0315 on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:24PM (#37652678)
Same. I have tried a few tools but none beat taking notes on paper.

You immediately get to mix text, tables and pictures. You can do it however you want. You can arrange it however you want.

Nothing beats this. Digital tools might be good at organizing old notes but I feel it is not necessary most of the time.

Re:People who still rely on paper by sl0tr4cer on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:17PM (#37667206)
I have found the physical act of writing, and this is borne out by research, helps me retain what I have just taken down.
Re:People who still rely on paper by 6510 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:01AM (#37655033)
> Maybe it's because I see how the sausage is made.

I feel the same, only without the maybe.

It just struck me that taking a picture of the white board and sending it to the printer would add up to acceptable use of technology. I have no idea why I never thought of that before. It seems actually nice to uses. (provided you delete the picture from drives, clouds, backups and trashcans)

Re:People who still rely on paper by patrickthebold on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:08AM (#37658735)
I'm with you except for the bills. Incoming physical mail is hard (for me) to deal with. Also, most things are set up through my bank to auto-pay. I check the first of the month what's going on.