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Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by baggy_trough on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:01PM (#37600548)
The absence of a modem in MacBook Pros does not mean the market is failing.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:16PM (#37600775)
No matter how much I am willing to pay, I cannot buy what I want. That is a market failure.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by fkyoureadthedoc on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:30PM (#37601004)
From one specific company though, you just don't want one from Dell
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Thursday September 21, 2023 @02:00PM (#37601455)
The choices are Windows with a modem or macOS without.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by baggy_trough on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:35PM (#37601072)
That is not what a market failure is.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by lostlogin on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:48PM (#37601285)
Well it’s not a success, so what it is?
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by baggy_trough on Thursday September 21, 2023 @02:21PM (#37601731)
It might very well be a success if most people don't care about modems and/or it would be cost prohibitive to provide the option.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Thursday September 21, 2023 @03:43PM (#37603115)
Yes, my theory is that the Qualcomm monopoly makes it cost prohibitive. The question I asked is if anyone has evidence for this.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Friday September 22, 2023 @03:02AM (#37608807)
One person does not a market failure make.

In order to be a market failure, a whole shitload of people have to want the feature in question, and yet although it could easily be made to happen, the feature is still not delivered. That's a market failure.

Give us a reasoned and researched piece of evidence as to how large this potential market is. Like, how many people would actually buy it, as opposed to all the people who say they'd buy it but then don't actually put up the cash when the feature is delivered.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:08AM (#37610119)
A market does not require a “shitload”. I am certain that I am not the only person who would buy a MacBook Pro with the connectivity of a Dell.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by fkyoureadthedoc on Friday September 22, 2023 @09:51AM (#37612055)
You're certainly not the only person, but who are you to say that there's enough of you to offset the cost? They might very well have determined that they won't make enough money to do it, in which case the market is working perfectly well.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Friday September 22, 2023 @10:42AM (#37612693)
I remain unconvinced that this was a free market decision. This is why I asked about any evidence in the patent and royalty situation.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Friday September 22, 2023 @09:19PM (#37619792)
Can you prove how many people would actually do so? Not the ones who say they would but in the end wouldn't cough up the money, but would actually carry through?

If you can't prove that market is large enough, then it doesn't make sense for Apple to go to that expense.

For example, how many people would pay enough extra to make it profitable for Apple to include a 192GB memory option for the M2 Max laptops and desktops? The current top end model maxes out at 96GB. How many people would pay enough extra to make it worth Apple's time to double that top end RAM value? I'm sure Apple can do it, it's just a matter of including the next level of higher capacity RAM modules.

What is your provable Total Addressable Market? Startups do this kind of evaluation all the time, and they try to wheedle VCs out of money with those numbers. And VCs poke holes in those evaluations all the time. So, let's do the same thing here.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Saturday September 23, 2023 @06:21AM (#37621978)
Why do you think Dell bothers to put LTE modems in laptops? I asked about evidence regarding the patent and royalty situation that prevents Apple from delivering a similar product.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:35PM (#37635259)
It has nothing to do with patents or royalties. It's all about the total addressable market and whether or not Apple thinks they could make enough profit from adding such a feature.

Obviously, Apple has decided not.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:35PM (#37636432)
It is not obvious to me.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:08PM (#37636662)
If Apple had decided there was enough profit to be made, then you would already have the device in your hands. The fact that you do not have said device is proof that Apple has decided there's not enough profit to be made.

The irony is that I agree with you one the point that I'd like to see a MacBook Pro with an integrated SIM or e-SIM card, so that I wouldn't need to tether. Where we disagree is on what process Apple has gone through and what conclusions they have reached on whether they can make enough profit off that function.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:22PM (#37636775)
My prediction is that once Apple has their own modem IP working and is not dependent on Qualcomm, the next release of MacBook Pro will have a builtin modem. This why I am asking about the patent/royalty situation and not making assumptions or apologies about Apple's process.

Would someone like to bet against this? I would like to invest in a prediction market for this.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:31PM (#37636865)
The company Apple bought had functional modems that they were selling to a lot of customers, before the acquisition. So, Apple could just ship those. But they were always markedly inferior to what Qualcomm had, and those customers were willing to take the lower quality for much lower price.

Apple thought that they had designed and built their own CPUs, GPUs, etc... so they could easily take this inferior product and turn it into something that was at least as good as what Qualcomm has. They were wrong. The problems they're trying to solve are partly patent encumbered, but only partly. It turns out that the same ecosystem advantages that Apple enjoys around some of their products are also the same effects that protect Qualcomm from competitors, and even as big as Apple is, they still can't break down those ecosystem barriers.

Since Apple is not willing to ship a markedly inferior product, that means they're stuck using Qualcomm modems, until their internal teams can deliver on what they promised. If they can deliver.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:44PM (#37637004)
We agree that Apple is stuck with Qualcomm. I remain unconvinced that the reason they can put a modem in my watch and not in the top of the line MacBook Pro is for simple market reasons.

“Qualcomm licenses all its patents as a group. For a set fee -- based on the selling price of the end device” according to https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/apple-and-qualcomm-settle-h...

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:09PM (#37637214)
This is a company that spends millions and millions of dollars every year, shaving a fraction of a millimeter here and a fraction of an ounce there. The absolute last thing they want to do is add new hardware functionality that won't be used by the bulk of the market.

When you squit out 50 models of something per year (like Samsung phones), you can afford for some of them to be more niche products that won't get as wide adoption. When you have only two or three variations on a single product for that year (like Apple), you can't afford that.

Instead, you have to make sure that all the features you offer are either used or usable by the majority of the customers, or that adding those features allows you to add enough to the price that the small number of people who would buy that product for those features will give you a sufficiently high return on your investment that you will be able to at least maintain your profit margin.

There just aren't enough people in the market like you who are unwilling to tether and that fact alone is enough to push them to hardware being made by a different company.

I want the integrated SIM or e-SIM myself, but I'm willing to tether if the integrated option isn't available. So, I'm part of the market that Apple is addressing. In contrast, you're not willing to tether, and so you buy hardware from a different company, and therefore not part of the segment they are addressing.

Apple has repeatedly demonstrated that there are segments of the market that they're not willing to chase, and this is one of those situations.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:11PM (#37637230)
> In contrast, you're not willing to tether, and so you buy hardware from a different company, and therefore not part of the segment they are addressing.

I use the tethering almost daily and hate it. I have almost every kind of Apple device. Many of them have modems.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:10PM (#37637222)
We will see when Apple starts shipping their own modem. I know what I am betting on. Would you like to take the other side of the bet?

I do appreciate your faith in the EMH.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:15PM (#37637268)
I'm not convinced that they will ever be shipping their own modem. Or, if they do, I suspect that the reason will be that antitrust laws have forced Qualcomm to make changes to their business model which causes cracks in their ecosystem which Apple is then able to take advantage of. Even then, I think it would be a decade or more before Apple could start shipping their modem.

Either that, or Apple gets fed up with the whole situation and just buys Qualcomm outright, then maybe strips the components and IP licenses they want, and then turns around and sells the dregs back to the market. But then that would endanger Apple to be the main target of those same kinds of antitrust laws.

Given as entrenched and both Apple and Qualcomm are, I'm not willing to make any bets between the Irresistible Force and the Unbreakable Object.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:20PM (#37637315)
Many of the possible outcomes would lead to more flexibility for Apple, who will then immediately start shipping a feature that most pro users would benefit from.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:26PM (#37637761)
Unfortunately, the key arguments that have to be made with Apple are:

1. How much more profit can you show that they will make if they take the decision to implement your suggestion?

2. How will this help them better meet their regulatory requirements?

For #1, you don't really have an answer. You would be one customer who would be affected, and you might choose to buy their hardware instead. But how likely is that? Can you prove that? And how many more people are there in the market who feel the same way?

For #2, your suggestion actually makes the regulatory situation worse, since you're now adding a cell phone modem to what was otherwise "just" a computing device. And that brings a whole host of additional regulations into the mix, including import laws and tariffs. And any lawsuit that is filed against Apple that could involve protectionist measures against intrusion of external businesses into local cell phone politics would now be able to stop all imports of all laptops of this type, since any of them could presumably have a cell phone modem in them.

For Apple as a corporation, I'm seeing effectively no upside here, and all downside.

For you personally, there would be a lot of upside. And people like me would also benefit. I just don't see a compelling argument that would convince Apple.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:45PM (#37637891)
You are clearly convinced that this was a decision made based on the market. I don’t believe that. I believe that as soon as they are not paying a percentage of every device to Qualcomm, Apple will ship this obvious feature.

As for the fear over regulation, why do Dell laptops and Apple iPads have modems?

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by bradknowles on Sunday September 24, 2023 @08:43PM (#37638519)
Maybe, but there's only one way to find out. We will just have to wait and see.

Despite whatever you may think of me, I do hope you're right.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:21AM (#37641591)
I don’t think poorly of you at all. I think many assume that free market forces prevail.

It seems to me that the current monopolies are the reason we don’t have an obvious feature.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by fkyoureadthedoc on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:37AM (#37642737)
> Why do you think Dell bothers to put LTE modems in laptops?

If I had to guess, more enterprise clients that want it.

Seriously doubt it's individuals buying up enough to make it worth it. I mean you won't even buy one right.

Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by jononomo on Thursday September 21, 2023 @02:08PM (#37601556)
I bet you could get what you want if you are willing to pay $10 billion.
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by mcculley on Thursday September 21, 2023 @06:13PM (#37605138)
Walk through this process. Who would I pay $10 billion to in order to get a MacBook Pro with an integrated LTE modem that works as well as it does in an iPad?
Re:Inside Apple’s Spectacular Failure to Build a Key Part fo... by Zetobal on Friday September 22, 2023 @05:07AM (#37609711)
I'll do it.