News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by nico on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @02:51PM (#37500193)
I live in the LA-metro area, 15min away from downtown LA This is a pretty dense urban area, and we can only get Spectrum, which goes down at least once a month for hours at a time, in the middle of the day

The only other alternative is getting a microwave antenna for $300/mo with a 4 year contract from a company called Geolinks

Had a similar issue when living in SF

Some buildings, and sometimes entire neighborhoods or small cities, only have one (crappy) vendor

I’m no fan of Starlink or Musk, but there’s definitely a market for them in well established, densely populated areas in rich countries

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by dotnet00 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:06PM (#37500390)
The reason they specified sparsely populated areas is that Starlink is designed for sparsely populated areas. In a denser area the performance would drop drastically because you'd need far higher satellite density to sufficiently distribute the load.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by esskay on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:39PM (#37500788)
If they can get the interconnect working that issue goes away (its mostly groundstation bandwidth limiting things).

The 'end goal' is to have it use the laser link to send the traffic across to a satellite close to the final destination, that should in theory help massively redistribute the ground station traffic.

It's obviously not foolproof, there's still bandwidth to be shared there but using a combination of some clever routing you could theoretically spread traffic across multiple satellites and groundstations with minimal latency impact.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by labcomputer on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:26PM (#37500612)
That may be true with current space vehicles, but there’s no fundamental reason that two or more SVs can’t form a distributed phased array (for MIMO a la WiFi). At least from a physics / spectrum perspective. The engineering might be tricky.

With SVs separated by hundreds of km, the beam width would be absolutely tiny, and channel reuse would be effectively infinite.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by rini17 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:35PM (#37500744)
The distributed array will however share one link and satellites don't have unlimited capacity either.

Wonder why you'd rather fill LEO to the brim, emitting vast amounts of CO2 in the process and filling stratosphere with metal oxides, than figure out how to improve infrastructure in your neighborhood.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:05PM (#37501056)
I've never heard anyone complain about filling the stratosphere with metal oxides, do you have somewhere I can read more about this risk? Naively, I would have expected that even thousands of 250kg satellites would be insignificant on the scale of the whole stratosphere (we're not talking about surface-level CO2, where we're pumping out gigatons per year), but I have no idea what that ecosystem is like. Is the metal oxide concentration measurable?

I do think this is a temporary issue; once the cable ISP monopolies are no longer valuable because anyone can just get Starlink, that competitive pressure will push down hard on those cable monopolies and infrastructure laws will have to return to sanity. Terrestrial ISPs with fiber-sharing requirements and appropriate infrastructure build-out could absolutely out-compete Starlink, but right now they can just collude together and lobby against changing the status quo.

I would much prefer to have a functional bureaucracy and intelligent, efficient infrastructure! But it's probably easier to fix that by launching the largest satellite constellation ever than by playing politics against some of the wealthiest media companies on the planet.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by Clubber on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:32PM (#37501363)
"Space junk," was a boogie man the news threw at the wall and didn't quite stick. Many of the pictures/diagrams of the satellites made them appear about 1000x bigger than they actually are.

Example:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/space-jun...

Beware the murder hornets!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/us/asian-giant-hornet-was...

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by chargingmarmot on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:28PM (#37503412)
I agree with the sentiment about media sensationalism but I don't think "space junk" is an issue we should be so quick to dismiss.

Just because the problem hasn't gotten too bad yet doesn't mean it isn't real (especially because the problem involves a positive-feedback "domino effect" and junk might be infeasible to clean up).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

With regard to Starlink: I was a little bit concerned because of the large number of satellites they're putting up, but as far as I understand, Starlink isn't actually a big risk right now as far as space junk goes because the satellites orbit at low altitudes (340 miles) and are expected to naturally de-orbit relatively quickly due to atmospheric drag. (The decision to put them at low altitudes had to do with network latency.) If Elon were to say tomorrow, "hey we're moving Starlink out to 500 miles" I would hope some kind of regulation would be able to prevent that.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by rini17 on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:38AM (#37520153)
Everything we launch has to pass through these low altitudes. If these altitudes become full of debris we might have to stop all launches for several years [1] and no human presence at space for a bit longer. Quite scary, better to handwave it away "aint happen space is big".

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/59559/how-long-can...

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by sliken on Friday September 15, 2023 @03:16PM (#37527891)
The starlink orbits are self cleaning, they are so low that without intervention things just slow down and fall out.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by rini17 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:04PM (#37503242)
We only have estimates, not yet complaints. Such as:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-89909-7

That was always the thinking of all kinds of pollution that they are insignificant, till it "suddenly" became a problem and "everyone" was surprised.

Well, if you're convinced it's inevitable then it is.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:30PM (#37501337)
Compare the CO2 emissions of launching a satellite with the CO2 emissions of digging trenches.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by cozzyd on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:38PM (#37502067)
The right thing to compare it to is building a cell tower
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by dotnet00 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:30PM (#37500670)
Hadn't heard of that concept before, sounds pretty interesting! Will have to read up on it more.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by anderspitman on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:36PM (#37500763)
How would you synchronize them?
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by HWR_14 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:01PM (#37501023)
Each satellite has N routers, and can support a certain bandwidth. Even if you hardwired a long LAN cable to it, more users drops the speed.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by wayfinder on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:07PM (#37501087)
I imagine the total cost of installation and ongoing maintenance of all the infrastructure required for this proposed setup for a substantial amount of urban users dwarfs the equivalent total cost of just installing new cabling and the lobbying required to get that done, especially over a 20 year period.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by jtchang on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:47PM (#37502176)
Don't underestimate lobbying costs in dense urban areas. Whenever you have to deal with people the alternative is often easier.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by MichaelZuo on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:18PM (#37503347)
I highly doubt it would 10x the cost though.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by asynchronous on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:33PM (#37500718)
It’s actually not the satellites as the bottleneck typically from what I understand, it’s the ground stations that serve those areas getting too congested.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by reportingsjr on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @03:59PM (#37501002)
The satellites may not currently be the bottleneck for certain areas, but they definitely don't support anything resembling a densely or even sparsely populated area.

Typical calculations (using only publicly available info as a caveat) generally point towards the current starlink constellation supporting a really low density of antennas.

If you want the details, the person who created starlink.sx has a great blog with some incredible calculations[0]. The section that is most relevant is under the heading "Simulation with TDM and beam spread combined".

Basically, the result is that starlink could support around 15 antennas/user terminals per "cell" at 75mbps, where a cell is about 252 square km. This is roughly 1 terminal per 17 square km.

If you allow for 10x oversubscription, fairly common for ISPs, that gets you to 1 terminal per 1.7 square km. Not really that impressive when you compare it to the density and services where 99.9% of people live, but it clearly helps out the small number of people way out there.

0: https://mikepuchol.com/modeling-starlink-capacity-843b2387f5...

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by asynchronous on Saturday September 16, 2023 @11:18PM (#37541195)
This was a very interesting read, thank you for correcting me. Enjoyed the deep dive.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:27PM (#37501300)
> I’m no fan of Starlink or Musk

Sad that you feel the need to say this.

Musk is one of the greatest industrialists the US has ever had. He's contributed enormously to the economy and the world.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by woodruffw on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:41PM (#37501444)
Civics and industry co-exist in a healthy society. Musk has consistently demonstrated that he has no civic sense and, when injured, will randomly lash out at whoever the hecklers around him tell him to lash out at.

That's not a quality that's worth celebrating, regardless of how much innovation he might enable. We can and should expect better of people, especially extraordinarily wealthy and powerful ones.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:59PM (#37502297)
> he has no civic sense

What about the civic sense of proving that great electric cars can be made at a profit, space launch costs can be cut 90%, and Starlink can enable communications by people who live under oppression?

Doesn't actually doing things that matter to the human race matter far more than saying comforting words and avoiding giving offense?

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by woodruffw on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:32PM (#37503042)
I don't think any of these things imply civic sense. At best, it shows a man with decent business acumen. At worst, he's an opportunist and a reactionary who has substantially degraded the level of political and social discourse of the country he lives in.

Of the things you've highlighted, Starlink has perhaps the strongest case for being evidence of civic sense. But that case is a potential one; in practice, Starlink (and Musk's vision) has yet to impress[1][2].

[1]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/elon-musks-refusal-to-p...

[2]: https://www.space.com/starlink-electronics-hum-disturbs-radi...

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @11:26PM (#37504615)
> I don't think any of these things imply civic sense.

I recommend you read a biography of Musk.

He makes his electric car patents freely available, to advance the transition to electric cars. He started SpaceX with the purpose of making humans a multi-planetary species. He's repeatedly bet his entire fortune on these goals.

He's civic minded where it counts. And he's delivered results.

As for business acumen, he takes financial risks any other businessman would consider to be insane.

Hard to get more civic-minded than that.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by Clubber on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:29PM (#37501320)
He's had the news mauling him for the past 2-3 years, I understand people kinda just regurgitate it.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by wkat4242 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:35PM (#37501402)
He doesn't need the news to expose his narcissism to the public, he's very capable of doing that all by himself. Yes, he's successful in industry but his personality leaves a lot to be desired. One does not make up for the other.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by threeseed on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:54PM (#37501590)
Since acquiring Twitter he has switched on the hate spout: enabling white supremacists, promoting trans-phobia, emboldening anti-semitics, attacking anyone who disagrees with him and using culture war politics as a tool rather than something to be avoided.

He's become Trump 2.0.

And that unsurprisingly has led many people, including myself, to do a complete 180° on our support for who he is as as person and by extension his accomplishments.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by WalterBright on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:51PM (#37502216)
His accomplishments are enormous - showing how to make electric cars at a profit, and cutting the cost of space launches by 90%. And now Starlink, too.

Standing up for free speech includes standing up for the right to express ideas you don't like. I'm sure he'll allow you to post your opinions, too.

Suppressing free speech is the first step towards tyranny.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by threeseed on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:06PM (#37502843)
Just be mindful that the US is the only country that has this attitude towards free speech.

Everyone else including Western countries like UK, Australia, Canada etc have a different take. Which is that hate speech is not conducive to a healthy society and that it doesn't lead to tyranny. Whatever that even means in modern discourse.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by mardifoufs on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:09PM (#37503281)
What did musk say that you think would be considered hate speech in Canada ?
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by hidl on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @06:39PM (#37502630)
Twitter has now become an excellent tool for radical feminist women to organize without fearing being banned for upsetting men's feelings, as was the case with the old Twitter regime.

For example, Meghan Murphy (founder of Feminist Current) had her previously banned account restored after Musk's reforms, and has again been using Twitter as an outlet for her activism and to connect with other many other feminist women since then.

So even if Twitter may have become something of a "hate spout" in your view, there are benefits to Musk's commitment to free speech being seen elsewhere on the platform.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by pensatoio on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:31PM (#37501351)
> I’m no fan of Starlink or Musk

He's the driving force behind some of the greatest innovations of our time. He's also just a person. I doubt many people can say they've had greater impact or could withstand the same scrutiny.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by newaccount74 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:52PM (#37501571)
People would have a much better opinion of him if he stuck to realising crazy projects (an electric car thats faster than a supercar, reusable rockets, solar panels that look like normal roof tiles...) and kept his questionable political opinions to himself.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by threeseed on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:58PM (#37501653)
Everyone is free to have their political opinions.

The issue with Musk is that those opinions are being manifested in the product decisions at Twitter e.g. taking a laissez-faire attitude towards hate speech and deliberating promoting controversial accounts in order to drive engagement.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by aPoCoMiLogin on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:37AM (#37508103)
i'm not sure what is the source of that but I've noticed that a lot of people has the need to take everything personally, and can't separate things.

for example I really like tom cruise as an actor, one of my personal top 10, but I don't like what he is doing in his private life (the cult thing). so what i'm doing is separating things and take what I like, and ignore (to some extent) what I don't like.

I feel like you guys take things way to serious, and expect everything to be perfect, which is not possible.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by Breza on Friday September 15, 2023 @08:36AM (#37522021)
Plus he keeps making wild promises and only occasionally delivering. Those roof tile solar panels you mention are a great example.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by aidenn0 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:32PM (#37501999)
> ...or could withstand the same scrutiny.

Not going to argue with the "greater impact" part, but mean pretty much every C-level executive in America with a twitter account manages to refrain from using it to repeatedly commit securities fraud.

Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by wkat4242 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @04:33PM (#37501383)
Weird... Here in Barcelona I can get fibre from 3 different providers (with actually separate networks at street level).
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by htss2013 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @05:53PM (#37502243)
Adding "I'm not fan of Musk" is odd here. Is this some kind of tribal signal? It's like writing about the market for new AWS services, preceded by "I'm no fan of Bezos but..."
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @06:22PM (#37502498)
It's not odd. Musk had a big cult-like following, even on HN. Bezos did not.
Re:SpaceX no longer taking losses to produce Starlink satell... by poulsbohemian on Friday September 15, 2023 @01:06AM (#37518680)
I could be wrong, but I would bet you'll start to see alternatives available to you within the next year / 24 months. There's so much federal money flowing into fiber right now...