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Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by mperham on Saturday September 09, 2023 @01:58PM (#37448203)
I don’t get the point? They point out two issues: picking an installer and adding insulation to the home. How are these hard or disruptive?

We switched to a heat pump last year and couldn’t be happier. It was quite expensive but Federal subsidies are now available with the Inflation Reduction Act in effect.

The real issue here is that the HVAC industry is quite conservative and still commonly recommends against heat pumps. This is the real political difficulty to overcome and the IRA’s buckets of money will do it. Europe needs the same.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by Angostura on Saturday September 09, 2023 @02:13PM (#37448411)
How expensive? I live in a old terraced house in the UK (no cavity wall, wooden floors open to cellar below). Adapting the house to be suitable for heatpumps is going to require cladding the whole of the house, redoing the floors, replacing the external front door and replacing all the radiators. It's going to cost tens of thousands of pounds.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by rini17 on Saturday September 09, 2023 @02:37PM (#37448760)
To me (Eastern Europe) this sounds like a standard stuff done by default when a building is renovated, due to energy savings. Done since long time ago, before heat pumps. Insulation also increases indoor comfort in the continental winters (prevents cold draft) and recently summers too. Seems both of these are coming to the UK, get used to it.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by michaelt on Saturday September 09, 2023 @03:23PM (#37449328)
A lot of the UK's housing stock is comprised of victorian buildings from before the advent of electricity. They have high ceilings, large windows, large gardens, traditional red brick walls and beautiful period features like carved exterior stonework.

They are also extremely badly insulated and costly to heat, having solid brick walls, large windows and high ceilings. We've already picked the low-hanging fruit like loft insulation and double glazed windows.

What's left to do is things like exterior cladding. I looked at getting external insulation applied to a victorian terraced house, and was quoted £30,000 - more than the UK's median salary.

The average annual energy bill is £1,923 so even if that insulation was so effective it dropped the energy bill to zero, it'd still be a pretty bad investment.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by theshrike79 on Saturday September 09, 2023 @06:02PM (#37450732)
As someone who lives in the Nordics, I always go "heh" when people say they have "double-glazed windows" like it's something modern.

Even my grandma's summer cabin has double glazed windows and it's not liveable during winters in the least. =)

Over here triple-glazing is the minimum and has been for decades, I don't see why it wouldn't be useful everywhere else too. They keep the heat out during summers and the heat in during winter.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by windexh8er on Saturday September 09, 2023 @08:30PM (#37451733)
I recently had to replace the majority of windows in my home in the US. I was appalled at the options and gimmicks and downright shady sales tactics. I ended up having custom windows made to get what I wanted. Maybe it's a "grass is greener" thing, but I'm envious of how it seems people are just more honest in the Nordics.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ralusek on Saturday September 09, 2023 @10:31PM (#37452365)
Meanwhile quadruple glazed window enjoyers have their laugh at your expense.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by korhojoa on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:24AM (#37453136)
Like they said, that's the minimum. Usually those are efficient enough so you can have a single window unit with a pane in the middle, but quadruples are common too.

Unfortunately, having more panes of glass does not automatically mean you get more energy efficiency.

The triples with very good insulation and coatings (eg. heat rejection) can be better than old quadruples. My parents have quadruple windows from the 80's, and energy efficiency is much better in a modern triple single unit than with the two doubles they have.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by viraptor on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:24AM (#37453139)
I've gone through the same in Australia and the "modern double glazing" in practice meant importing windows from Poland. Literally shipping around the world was the most reasonable option a few years ago (hopefully it's better today) while really crappy houses burning energy to heat/cool every room are still being built as a default idea.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by sgt on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:38AM (#37454903)
In South Africa, double glazed windows are usually imported too (the parts) but they are assembled here so that they can get your measurements exactly right.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by jibbit on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:00PM (#37458862)
This completely misses the point - we are talking about easy wins. There is zero point putting triple glazed windows in a 200 year old house that isn’t otherwise insulated
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ClumsyPilot on Saturday September 09, 2023 @09:45PM (#37452121)
> The average annual energy bill is £1,923 so even if that insulation was so effective it dropped the energy bill to zero, it'd still be a pretty bad investment.

That would be what, like 7% return on investment? We just had a period of ~0% interest rates and <2% mortgage rates.

It is not realistic to expect ROI of only a few years for upgrades to buildings or infrastructure. Lifespan of these things is like half a century or more.

Coming from eastern Europe, the age and condition of housing here was a bit shocking.

There used to be a grant in UK for insulating housing, and it was cut by conservative government. Our rate of insulating homes dropped form 2 million houses a year to basically zero. Without favourable credit, maybe zero interest credit, avaliable, of course individual homeowners will find it difficult to afford.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by chii on Saturday September 09, 2023 @11:13PM (#37452583)
This seems to be an outcome of cheap energy, or mispriced energy.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by marsokod on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:43AM (#37454936)
I have a heat pump in such a house, even worse actually since it is a semi-detached. I did not need to do any extra work, and it works fine. My savings are not great, but that is also mostly because I don't have a hot water tank so I still need gas for my hot water. We just replaced 3 radiators, one of which is actually still permanently shut and I am still doubtful about the need for the other twos.

For the walls, it can become quite expensive to insulate it. But at least for the wooden floor, you have a cheap option: lay a new laminate flooring with proper underlay. It will cost typically less than £1000, you'll avoid damaging your wooden flooring, and also improve the thermal confort by removing the air leaks and insulating more.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by brightball on Saturday September 09, 2023 @02:00PM (#37448230)
There’s a company in Australia making a coating that increases efficiency of heat pumps by 40-50%. Going to be interesting to see the impact.

https://graphenemg.com/thermal-xr/

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by solardev on Saturday September 09, 2023 @02:04PM (#37448300)
Is that really the bottleneck, though? They are already dramatically more efficient than combustive or resistive heat. But they are usually not drop-in replacements, and it's harder to retrofit older single family homes with them, vs a smaller apartment where you can just drop in a mini split and take out the old furnace.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by Ekaros on Saturday September 09, 2023 @02:11PM (#37448382)
Isn't that basically increasing the surface area? It makes sense at scale, but couldn't you reach same effect with 50% bigger area anyway? And I would expect that the surface area is already optimised to be close enough to what is needed. So for residential I wonder if there is any real gains there.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ianburrell on Saturday September 09, 2023 @08:11PM (#37451613)
One way to combat conservative HVAC is require installing heat pumps instead of central ACs. My impression is that heat pumps, at least the warm-temp ones, are only little more expensive than ACs since they are similar designs. Requiring heat pumps means that the customer has the option to use it now or later.

I got AC installed a few years ago and regret not getting a heat pump. I didn't think about it until it was too late.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by mmaurizi on Saturday September 09, 2023 @09:38PM (#37452088)
I did this recently when replacing our failed central AC, it was an extra $500 over the AC. It’s tied into the existing natural gas furnace.

The main issue is your basic 14 SEER heat pump needs larger capacity to be able to be the sole heating source than it does for just AC, so in my case in the northeast US the heat pump can’t economically be run in Winter, just spring/fall & probably can’t keep up with the coldest winter days at all. But it does provide flexibility if gas prices spike in the future, and saves a very small amount of money per year (< $100)

If you’re the type to buy a high efficiency system going with a heat pump over central AC seems like it’s maybe more worth it from a return on investment standpoint

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by itsmartapuntocm on Saturday September 09, 2023 @10:03PM (#37452236)
You don’t want to oversize the unit because then the cooling runtime will be too short to properly dehumidify.

The solution usually is like in your case to include an auxiliary heat source such as electric or gas for those extreme cold days the heat pump can’t keep up.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by Kirby64 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:32AM (#37452922)
Not really an issue to oversize anymore if the system uses inverter based compressors and multi speed fan systems. That said, those are unlikely to be used in the cheapest heat pump systems.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by TaylorAlexander on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:44AM (#37453723)
Question: I recently got an “inverter” based A/C and I see it has very smooth start up. Is that basically what I would call a brushless motor? Maybe the term inverter is being used because the original source is A/C?
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by yial on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:03AM (#37455465)
A brushless motor is a 3 phase motor without brushes. A brushed motor is a dc motor with brushes.

I say that because both can spin up very aggressively.

What you’re seeing is not really because it’s brushless- it’s a “soft start” feature… most likely. It could also be that your unit is a variable speed.

Now — I may be completely misunderstanding what you’re asking. If so apologies. I went from an old unit to a newer variable speed, and the starting does seem very smooth, even when cranking up to full vs the jarring and faster spin up of the old unit.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by TaylorAlexander on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:39PM (#37457534)
I don’t think older A/C units used brushed motors, but A/C induction motors. A/C induction motors often have a clunk when they start, because doing speed control is more expensive than just turning them on all at once. Once you have a brushless motor, you don’t need a clunk anymore to start it, you necessarily have enough control to smoothly start and stop it. But my question is why do they call it an “inverter” motor and is that the same as an brushless motor?
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by distract8901 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @05:44PM (#37460380)
Inverter refers to the power control system.

Your typical AC unit has a single solenoid that physically makes or breaks the connection across your 240v line. That's the big clunk you hear when the compressor kicks on. This type of control is either all the way on or all the way off.

An inverter topology uses a bunch of electronics to convert your incoming 240v to a lower voltage or even frequency. This gives the electronics very fine control over how the motor works. You can start up slow, or run the motor at 50% or anything you want.

This doesn't really have anything to do with whether the motor itself is brushless. All brushless motors require advanced drive electronics. This usually ends up being pretty similar to an inverter topology, but not necessarily. A brushed motor doesn't care, you can just jam some electricity in and get motion out.

What you think of when you say "brushless motor" is categorically -not- the kind of motor in an AC unit. AC compressors use larger induction motors which may not have brushes, but they are not 'brushless motors'

A brushless motor specifically refers to a particular type of DC motor which uses phased, stationary coils to move a rotor with a ring of magnets. An AC induction motor may use either an iron core in the rotor, or a coil of wire that produces a magnetic field for the stator windings to push against.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by TaylorAlexander on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:15PM (#37462455)
Gotcha this makes sense. Thank you!
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by Kirby64 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:50PM (#37461587)
Nope, nothing to do with that. The difference is: older style have either the compressor either on or off. They turn on or off using a contactor (basically a special relay).

Inverter refers to the drive circuitry for the compressor. The inverter basically concerts AC to DC, then it's inverted back into AC, however the AC output can be variable frequency. This allows for slower speeds of the compressor, at lower power consumption.

As far as I'm aware the compressor design can be exactly the same, the only difference is the drive for it.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by vericiab on Saturday September 09, 2023 @10:53PM (#37452469)
I'm also in the northeast US (more specifically New England) and that's the issue I couldn't get around when I looked into it.

My AC unit is only 1.5 tons but my furnace is 40k BTU and, unlike the 75k BTU furnace it replaced, is appropriately sized for the space. (Why someone previously installed such a massively oversized furnace I will never know.) If I remember correctly a 1.5 ton heat pump is roughly equivalent to 18k BTU, so it might be useful in the all too brief cool but not cold periods in spring and fall but in winter I'd still mainly be relying on the gas furnace.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ianburrell on Saturday September 09, 2023 @11:15PM (#37452588)
I live in place with mild winters. The hot places with lots of AC tend to have mild winters. But I also have gas furnace that would be backup heat.

It would also make people getting AC think about getting more expensive low-temp heat pump.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by itsmartapuntocm on Saturday September 09, 2023 @10:06PM (#37452252)
Split system heat pumps at least are almost exactly the same as a regular AC condenser, only difference being that there’s a reversing valve to reverse the flow of refrigerant.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by aatharuv on Saturday September 09, 2023 @09:22PM (#37452008)
In California, at least, they seems to be recommending it. (I'm currently in the market to replace my Central Air system and talking to vendors.)
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ZunarJ5 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:00AM (#37453547)
It's also an article from the Economist, so they are unlikely to be favourable to any kind of investments like this that don't have immediate obvious ROI.
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by WeylandYutani on Sunday September 10, 2023 @04:05AM (#37453831)
How much would 4 hurricanes reaching the East Coast cost and how many heat pumps could you install with that kind of money?
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by ZunarJ5 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:01AM (#37454715)
"Why don't you just sell your home and move?"

These people dgaf. Don't delude yourself that they do.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by TaylorAlexander on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:42AM (#37453711)
Question for anyone that knows the answer. Where do we actually get these subsidies? My mom’s house has an old fuse panel and I’ve seen it said that she can get a subsidy to upgrade it to breakers. How would I actually get this for my mom?
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by valleyer on Sunday September 10, 2023 @05:47AM (#37454350)
Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by dontlaugh on Sunday September 10, 2023 @04:57AM (#37454123)
There are many homes that can’t be insulated and have their radiators swapped for a reasonable cost.

Also, what AC system doesn’t also heat efficiently? When I got our split system installed there wasn’t even an option to buy a non-reversible one.

Re:Heat pumps show how hard decarbonisation will be by perryizgr8 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:12PM (#37457845)
> Federal subsidies

> Inflation Reduction Act

Does not compute.