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Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by mypastself on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:20AM (#37369495)
Which ownership rights do the sellers retain now that they didn’t previously? I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it.

If you’re talking about manufacturers making their devices more difficult to repair or voiding warranties based on minor modifications, that doesn’t mean you can’t do what you want with the item. It just means you can’t force the company to fix or replace it free of charge when you do.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by TeMPOraL on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:26AM (#37369519)
It's not that the PCs come with more strings attached than they did before - it's that many people, especially younger generation, are so used to those strings controlling their lives through their mobile devices and everything being a service, that they don't realize the same isn't true with a regular PC. At least isn't yet.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by perihelions on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:27AM (#37369523)
They don't. I think the commenter was guessing by generalizing from software/subscription service ToS's, which are ubiquitous; plus the fusion of hardware/software in inseparable packages, like the iPhone hardware, which is a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by aficionado87 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:10AM (#37369752)
> a brick without an ongoing Apple subscription

This just isn’t true. You don’t have to give Apple another dime to use an iPhone perpetually. Any paid Apple subscriptions are optional for cloud or streaming services.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by perihelions on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:30AM (#37369890)
It may be a free subscription, but it's still an ongoing, no-opt-out commercial software service relationship with Apple, Inc. That's why it has a Terms of Service [0] – which is effectively a ToS for the iPhone hardware itself, as there is no way to use it without Apple's OS.

[0] https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS16_iPadOS16.pdf (the iOS ToS)

(And I think it's noteworthy how that ToS' language bounces freely between "hardware" and "software"; how it fluctuates between "software license agreement" and "by using your iPhone (device)", you are agreeing to...". Apple hardware and software are fused together: there is no practical difference).

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by dismalpedigree on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:27AM (#37369872)
Agreed its optional. But Apple will do their best (worst?) to get you to use it. Defaults to the free 5g, resetting preferences after OS upgrades, nagging prompts, etc.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by paulluuk on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:02AM (#37369711)
The only example I can think of is beer bottles. I know it's not related to computer hardware, but I'm just trying to think of examples where you purchase a consumer item and it's still not legally yours.

The reason why it remains property of the brewery, is so that they can re-use it when you recycle it. It might be something that's specific for my country, though.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by mpsprd on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:10AM (#37369748)
here in Canada with returnable bottles, you actually buy the bottle container with a cover, but if you return it they buy it back from you.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by schemathings on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:10AM (#37369751)
Germany?
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by ballenf on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:23AM (#37369831)
> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it.

I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this. It's probably an unpopular example because people seem to broadly like it, but it does demonstrate the principal that the seller retains full control of the hardware and can "repossess" the device. The original purchaser does not receive a master unlock code.

Even if locking yourself out of your device is "your fault", it doesn't alter the fact that at that point only Apple retains control of the device.

Same with bios locks and management engines on PCs.

The idea that possession = ownership is gone. And we're almost all ok with that especially since it makes us a little safer and more "secure". At least until we can't trust Apple, Intel, etc. anymore.

One could argue that the black market value for your locked phone compared to unlocked phone is a proxy for how much you actually own the phone.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by GeekyBear on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:49AM (#37370007)
> I would call iCloud locking an embodiment of this.

Activation locks were required by law to deter armed theft.

> A new report from Reuters found that iPhone theft dropped by 50 percent in London, 40 percent in San Francisco and 25 percent in New York. The drops represent theft activity as measured during the 12 months following Apple’s introduction of the remote locking feature in September 2013 as part of iOS 7.

With iOS 8, Apple made its so-called said “kill switch” active by default, in accordance with California regulation, and that should help the rates of theft continue to trend downwards.

https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-lea...

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by yenwodyah on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:22AM (#37370209)
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time that a law with good intentions has prefaced a loss of freedom
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by jfengel on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:30AM (#37370280)
Laws pretty much always mean a loss of freedom, with the intent of promoting some other positive goal (often, some other freedom). That's why we make them.

Balancing these goals is not easy, but we don't get to avoid it just because we want "freedom" as an abstraction. It's an important consideration but only one when you put a lot of people with conflicting goals together.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by rhn_mk1 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @10:35AM (#37370763)
It's ironic that property rights have been eroded in the name of protecting property.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by baq on Sunday September 03, 2023 @11:47AM (#37371324)
It isn’t ironic, it’s precisely how it’s supposed to work.

Laws take freedom (as in do whatever you want) from people and give it to other people so the total expected gains are bigger than without the law, pretending that dishonest lawmakers don’t exist (false obviously). Also, all laws are bets on their outcomes and sometimes they go south.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by GeekyBear on Monday September 04, 2023 @09:25AM (#37380244)
I believe it had more to do with the fact that armed robbery is inherently dangerous than just protecting property.
Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by swayvil on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:10AM (#37370124)
Now there's a product. "Universal safety and security".

Universal safety and security is pushed almost ubiquitously. Like it's a holy truth. Trumping all other concerns. And anybody who argues for anything else is just selfish or whatever.

Re:The boiling frog of digital freedom by marcosdumay on Sunday September 03, 2023 @10:28AM (#37370708)
> I’m not familiar with any ToS that permits a company to repossess your PC or parts of it.

Google just decreed that, starting 2 days ago, nobody may distribute software for my phone...