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Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by voakbasda on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:05PM (#37363343)
Small farmer here. Big farms are the problem.

If regulations under discussion were applied equally to all farms, then most small farms would cease to exist, because our neighbors would sue us into oblivion.

Not because we are doing anything as egregiously wrong as CAFOs, but because we cannot afford to defend against spurious lawsuits from city folks that have moved to the country.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by aapl88889 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:12PM (#37363388)
You're being downvoted because the people north of Richmond think they know more about small farming than you. The cost of complying to these regulations would kill small farms.
[dead]
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by dang on Sunday September 03, 2023 @03:42AM (#37368496)
This is quite a case of imagination. One user downvoted, and that's hardly "the renter yuppies of HN"... or any other collective.
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by dang on Sunday September 03, 2023 @03:42AM (#37368493)
One user downvoted, and I don't think it behooves anyone to mindread them. Don't forget that misclicks are a thing.
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by tb_technical on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:11PM (#37363379)
Everyone's voting you down, because nuance on the internet is difficult - as is admitting you're wrong about something.

Everything this comment above says is also detailed in the book Sacred Cow. Large corporations are, again, the problem. But people come out of the woodwork to defend them under an article that vilifies them.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by dang on Sunday September 03, 2023 @03:40AM (#37368487)
Everyone's not voting voakbasda down—the comment has been heavily upvoted. You may have run into the contrarian dynamic:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by tb_technical on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:42AM (#37369962)
Earlier yesterday, the comment was heavily voted down before myself and another voted it up. It's why there were two comments talking about it being voted down. Did you notice they were both posted within a minute of each other? It's deleted now, but this did happen
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by dang on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:40PM (#37373045)
It got literally one downvote before you voted it back up, 7 minutes later.
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by tb_technical on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:43PM (#37375327)
I'm pretty sure the score was -2 before myself and another person commented on it. Not that it matters.

My perception at the time of posting the comment was correct. If I could edit the wording now, I would, but I can't. Weird flex.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by dang on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:21PM (#37375966)
Not to pile on, but in case it's interesting: there had been one downvote and upvote by the time you commented. The lowest the score ever reached was 0.
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by bryanlarsen on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:46PM (#37363753)
Small farms and big farms both spread fertilizer on their land at similar rates per acre. We only had 50 head of cattle, but it was still enough to cause algae blooms on the local creek.

Proper regulations are good protection against lawsuits. Without regulations your responsibilities to keep the environment clean are vague. OTOH, following regulations in good faith makes your responsibilities very clear.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by taeric on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:43PM (#37366141)
50 cattle sounds like a large farm? Are there technical breakdowns on sizes?
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by danaris on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:25PM (#37367193)
50 cattle is definitely not a large farm. I'm not sure what you're thinking would count as "small".
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by taeric on Sunday September 03, 2023 @12:01AM (#37367620)
That is why I'm asking? A quick search shows that would need about 50 acres of land? That is pretty a pretty large amount of land. What is a "small" farm?
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by defrost on Sunday September 03, 2023 @12:13AM (#37367680)
It varies by country and agricultural use type (primarily cattle, mainly grain, etc.)

Where I am, the grain district of Western Australia:

    ALMOST two-thirds of the farming population in the agricultural area of Western Australia live on farms of 1,000 acres or more in size.
and

    The average farm size in WA is approximately 4500 hectares (11,000 acres).
https://library.dpird.wa.gov.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sites/gateway/files/Grain%20prod...

Both those statements are true, most farms are greater than 1K acres, and the average size of a grain farm is 11,000 acres.

My neighbour shoots ULR targets at 5,000 yards across his property.

Most of the grain growing here is family dynasty type ownership.

Cattle stations get much much bigger.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by taeric on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:39AM (#37370347)
I wouldn't consider those numbers small, though? That is nearly the size of the city I live in. Not saying you are wrong. Just acknowledging the numbers. This feels like calling Amazon a small business, because it isn't Walmart.
Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by bryanlarsen on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:00PM (#37381741)
The standard measure would be number of employees, wouldn't it?

50 beef cattle is hobby farm size. It wouldn't provide enough revenue to support a family. We needed grains, oilseeds, pigs and chickens in addition to the 50 beef cattle to support ours.

11,000 acres in Saskatchewan (and presumably Australia) is family farm size. It will have 0 or 1 employees.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by taeric on Monday September 04, 2023 @07:15PM (#37386110)
Why is that the standard measure? By that rubric, an overwhelming number of small businesses can't support families. Certainly without a lot of supplemental income.

I'm ok with the definition that most farms just aren't small. Certainly ok with the idea that a small farm is still giant compared to any other "small" business. But I find it odd that Clarkson's Farm, a show many are probably familiar with today, is literally 1/10 the size of what you are calling a small farm. Is that just a tiny farm?

Edit: Finally tried clicking around your links, I think you messed up the WA one. At any rate, I see a "small" farm is designated by revenue of about 28k. https://cms.agr.wa.gov/WSDAKentico/Imported/641-WSDAAgInfogr..... shows that "63% of farms are less than 50 acres" So, I can see how your average number can work, as that is how statistics work. That said, most farms are clearly not 11k acres.

Edit2: Annoyingly, that link I put up indicates the "small" revenue is 250k. It was an exemption of some sort that I closed the link on that indicated 28.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by bryanlarsen on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:13AM (#37387763)
Because size is irrelevant. A 1 acre greenhouse can produce more calories and imcome than a 10,000 acre dryland farm.

And all real farms have at least 6 figures of revenue. They also have at least 6 figures of expenses. A small combine harvester costs $500,000, for example.

Re:The myths we tell ourselves about American farming by taeric on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @10:54AM (#37392496)
If you are using 500k equipment, you are no longer a small farm, though? You are small for large farms, maybe. But not what anyone would think of as a small farm.

I'm curious what the exemptions are on runoff regulations. That was the driver for what got me asking.