> Additionally, I think the proportion of cyclists using any kind of navigation solution is lower than with car drivers...

In large part because cycling is fairly resistant to traffic jams

How many cyclists use Google Maps to navigate? I guess (with no true facts) most cyclists know their primary routes and when going somewhere new have a rough idea and just check for the last part.

Whereas car drivers often use navigation all the time to see traffic and alternatives, which are non-issues for cyclists.

Thus even with many cyclists the information they collect is less.

Biking through Keskuspuisto central park, even when born and raised and lived in Helsinki for my whole life, one still needs to consult the satellite map a lot. It's a maze. The signs are roughly indicative at best. So many places look exactly the same you forget the exact crossings during the winter. You often can't see far because it's a forest.

You think Google is watching your location only when you're using Google Maps?

The widespread assumption that Google collects all data all the time and uses it for everything is ridiculous.

There’s a labyrinth of explicit user agreements, all of which are strictly enforced, and then there are further layers of voluntary restrictions on top of that.

Yes, Google might collect location data even when you’re not using Maps (there are a lot of passionate, dedicated Timeline users), but you have to have that enabled, and even then the data can only be used in certain ways.

I believe they also collect location data when you're not using Google Maps for the purpose of updating their database of wifi locations (that they then use for location tracking). There is an agreement for this too, but the Android phones I've had regularly spam you until you agree to it.

You mean: until you accidentally click to agree because it popped up just when you wanted to click something below it. And then of course the only way to disable it again is hidden somewhere several levels deep, and comes with warnings that it will break your phone.

I had to go to great lengths to disable location history, and Google penalizes me for it by disabling search history in Maps as a result. I'm sure 99% of people don't go to great lengths to disable location history and so yes your entire history of GPS locations is basically saved to a Google database as far as I remember. (Note I'm obviously a user recalling details from years ago and not a Google employee/developer. My perception that Google collects all our GPS details forever by default is based on reality, whether or not that means you as an employee would actually be able to do anything with that data.)

> The widespread assumption that Google collects all data all the time and uses it for everything is ridiculous.

Maybe they fail to use it competently but it definitely collects a lot of data and attempting to stop it results in punitive reactions and disabling of features not needing it - and repeated badgering to permit Google to collect data again.

Google also collects data that I was initially unaware that it is collecting.

"Yes, Google might collect location data even when you’re not using Maps (there are a lot of passionate, dedicated Timeline users), but you have to have that enabled"

Of course that opt-in requirement was only the result of a hard-fought class action settlement.

Take this with a grain of salt as my recollection of the litigation is somewhat hazy. But I believe Google argued, even when a user opted out of location tracking, Google could still keep the data for its own uses. Ie opting out of location tracking simply meant the user didn't have access to their location history, it didn't show up on the phone (couldn't be searched by suspicious spouses) etc.

Well, they collect quite some information, but to figure out which exact routs are taken etc need a persistent collection which is relatively expensive. The "passive" cell based location tracking doesn't work for that.

In a car you can charge your phone and battery usage for GPS isn't as much of a problem.

> How many cyclists use Google Maps to navigate?

The Cowboy bike company have started using Google Maps for navigation in their app, which is a bummer: Before the change, the navigation would reliably take direct me to use roads that a bike friendly. Now it does just the opposite: it wants me to take big roads that are only friendly to cars.

Google Maps was a nightmare at the top 100 US News university I went to. It'd constantly be unaware of bike routes and try to take me an absurdly wrong way around. Even as I was taking the bikable shortcut paths it would just keep rerouting telling me to turn around 180° even when I was more than halfway near the other road. You'd think there's be sufficient data on a major university campus...

Exactly.

Add that there’s no Android or Google Auto for bikes, you usually don’t charge while biking, etc. The people who do need to look up their cycling route typically do it beforehand, so in the end even in cycling-heavy regions there are very few using active navigation.

Delivery workers will in regions where that’s common, but they likely use company-provided or other local solutions.

> and just check for the last part.

hit is not how I use navigation apps when cycling. When I don't know the way, I start my navigation app (not gmaps) when I drive off, because

- I don't want to stop midway to check where I need to go, when I can do that when I get on the bike - I don't know where exactly to stop to check where to go - If I don't know where exactly I want to go, going roughly in the right direction probably means that I cycle longer than I need to

Also mistakes driving a car are more costly. If you miss a turn on a bike, you can stop, walk your bike back, and take it. In a car, if the street is busy, you can’t do that, and who knows where you end up if you take the next exit etc.

The ex-Googler is most likely talking about the product as a whole, across the globe. It would be hard to justify features dedicated to a small group of users overall (with different goals/expectations), especially while keeping privacy (and data sharing). That being said, Google maps works great for cyclists in the US ...

It's maddening that tens of millions of users is "give up and do something else" territory for Google.

Supporting sustainability, also a job for someone else. We are so lucky OSM exist, helping to perhaps save the cities and the planet.

Yes, it’s also maddening for most Googlers who are passionate about the work they want to do that would affect just tens of millions (or less).

But at least it leaves room for other companies in some situations. What’s really sad is when there’s something that could only be done by Apple or Google, but it’s too small for either of them to actually do it.

Problem is those companies are like Nest, who made good products with love and then sold themselves to Google who then turned most Nest products into bargain-basement offerings with half the features. So the only real fix is FOSS, since everything else can be bought and killed. (FOSS can be too, but it's harder.)