News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by adrian_b on Friday September 01, 2023 @07:53AM (#37349602)
That book is likely to be correct that it is a myth that "al-Andalus" was "a place where Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived in harmony" and that in reality being a non-Muslim must have caused many disadvantages.

Nevertheless, even without examining any evidence from that book, it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the non-Muslims had been much better treated under the Arab rulers than the non-Christians were treated after the territory had been reconquered by the Spanish kings.

For this, no other evidence is necessary beyond the fact that even if the non-Muslims might have not "lived in harmony", they certainly had lived there in great numbers, while soon after the reconquest the non-Christians no longer lived there (this is especially obvious from the large number of Sephardim who had to live in other countries after that).

Another thing that is true beyond any reasonable doubt is what is said in the parent article, i.e. that regardless whether the Arab conquest was good or bad for the local people, for Europe as a whole the Arab presence in Spain has been extremely useful, both as the source of improved knowledge in chemistry, mathematics and astronomy, due to their own research of various Arab and Muslim authors, and as the source of many ancient Latin and Greek works that had been lost in Europe.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by pfannkuchen on Friday September 01, 2023 @08:40AM (#37350066)
Why would it be symmetric? This is like if North American natives had successfully expelled the Europeans after some amount of time, and then saying that the natives were meaner to the Europeans than vice versa. Wouldn’t expulsion be justified from the North American native’s perspective?
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by tropicaljacket on Friday September 01, 2023 @09:50AM (#37350830)
Note that there was about 9 centuries between the Umayyad conquest of Iberia (8th century) and the explulsion of Moriscos (17th century). So the analogy with North American natives would be something like - if somehow the Native Americans win political/military control in the 23th century (9 centuries after the arrival of the Europeans) and then decide that all non-native Americans will have to leave the country to wherever their ancestors came from - do you feel that would be justified?
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by pfannkuchen on Friday September 01, 2023 @10:11AM (#37351086)
From the native perspective that would absolutely be justified. At the same time from the European perspective they should resist being expelled (just as the equivalent people in Spain should have and probably did resist being expelled in their time).

As a side note, I feel a lot of people have a hard time processing conflicting perspectives and instead project their own moral views as a uniform perspective onto everyone at once, which does not produce a useable model of reality IMO.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by nloum on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:50AM (#37362025)
> I feel a lot of people have a hard time processing conflicting perspectives and instead project their own moral views as a uniform perspective onto everyone at once

Thanks for putting into words something I've been feeling for a long time! It's like people think that conflict is unnatural, when really it is one of the most fundamental aspects of nature.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by capableweb on Friday September 01, 2023 @08:08AM (#37349725)
> it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the non-Muslims had been much better treated under the Arab rulers than the non-Christians were treated after the territory had been reconquered by the Spanish kings.

Yeah, Spain the kingdom didn't really treat Muslims all that great, one just have to look at the "Expulsion of the Moriscos" in 1609 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos). Hard to beat that when it comes to treatment of entire populations.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by christkv on Friday September 01, 2023 @08:08AM (#37349727)
Read the book. Preservation of knowledge was done by the Byzantine empire not the Arabs.
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by adrian_b on Friday September 01, 2023 @08:20AM (#37349844)
A part of the ancient Latin and Greek literature has been preserved by the Byzantine Empire and another part by the Arabs.

The Arabs actually had much more interactions with the Western Europeans than the latter had with the Byzantines, so much more old books have reached Europe through the Arabs. Most Byzantine books have reached Europe only after the Fall of Constantinople and the invention of the movable-type printing press, when their importance has soon become more historical than practical, due to the rapid advances that have started at that time.

Besides the ancient Latin and Greek books, the Arabs have also passed knowledge that had come from India and Persia and also the results of original research that went beyond what had been transmitted from others, especially in chemistry and mathematics, hence words like alchemy and algebra.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by 37074177throw on Friday September 01, 2023 @09:28AM (#37350551)
Muslims, not Arabs. Also you are mistaken about Arabs passing Persian knowledge. Initially invading Arabs were given to destroying books. It was Muslim Persians who did most of the translation, and subsequently elaboration of the ancient world’s thinking into the Muslim civilization and from there to Europe. And yes, they wrote in Arabic just like Isaac Newton wrote Principia in Latin. And most of us now write in English, but are we Anglos?
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by adrian_b on Friday September 01, 2023 @12:02PM (#37352519)
I agree than many of the most important scientific advances in the Muslim world were due to Persians, like the classification of the chemical substances made by Avicenna, who has written in Arabic, as you say.

However, the works of Avicenna and others like him have reached Europe through Arabs, frequently through Spain.

If you know of another path to Europe for the Persian Arabic works, I am curious to hear which is it.

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by ROTMetro on Friday September 01, 2023 @03:08PM (#37354946)
Lot's of non-Muslim non-Arabs were part of this Islamic golden age as well.
Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by ssttoo on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:35AM (#37361888)
> words like alchemy and algebra

And “algorithm” too, named after the scientist Al-Khwarizmi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khwarizmi

Re:A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History by mikhailfranco on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:11AM (#37368103)
What US state takes its name from the Arabic title for a ruler?

Alabama?

Good guess, but no, it's California from Khalifa.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_California