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Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:22PM (#37316483)
Even a literal Nazi should have access to utilities.

Though I would say cloudflare isn't quite up to that level.

Edit: Seeing this downvoted is disappointing. Access to utilities needs to be treated as a right. Only the courts should be able to take it away.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @09:44PM (#37316640)
The Germans who died in the 30s and 40s would be alive if the Nazis had been denied access to oxygen. As some of their heirs openly talk about murdering us I don't think in the long run we'll still be mutually protecting each others rights.

It in fact might be kinder to deny them rights now than life later.

People who openly advocate for mass violence even if vague and theoretical belong in prison.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:20PM (#37316885)
> People who openly advocate for mass violence even if vague and theoretical belong in prison.

Okay, so put them in prison!

But if they're not in prison they should have electricity, mail, communications.

Hell, even if they are in prison they get those things.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:13AM (#37318307)
You think the companies they do business with should be forced against their will to carry their hateful communications?
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @04:56AM (#37319282)
If they choose to enter a utility market, yes.

They can leave the market at any time, but ISPs should not be making these choices.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by vdqtp3 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:03AM (#37317521)
> if the Nazis had been denied access to oxygen

>As some of their heirs openly talk about murdering us

> People who openly advocate for mass violence even if vague and theoretical belong in prison.

Wait.......didn't you just openly advocate for mass violence (denying them oxygen) against the philosophical heirs of Nazis, even if only in a vague and theoretical fashion?

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by michaelmrose on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:33AM (#37318429)
I did not. I said specifically that Germans in hindsight ought to have bled the Nazis rather than descend into the hellscape that followed and we with the gift of their terrible example should shut down the monsters now when this can be done non-violently. Please attend more carefully to my words.

> It in fact might be kinder to deny them rights now than life later.

Lock up the bad guys now so we aren't in a position where our only options are fascism or murder.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by hotdogscout on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:44AM (#37317764)
>People who openly advocate for mass violence even if vague and theoretical belong in prison

I very much agree but this is so one-sided. Would you support arresting Muslims who support Shariah? Would you support arresting Stalinists?

There are sadly so many groups that advocate for mass violence I think it's pointless how people only seem to care about the single one that's most vilified and defeated.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by michaelmrose on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:37AM (#37318449)
I don't think this is complicated at all. If the are merely organizing and trying to use proper legal procedures to implement their designs they should be defeated at the ballot box if they plot to implement by force they belong in prison.
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by bb88 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @10:11PM (#37316827)
I have a hard time with this.

The constitution doesn't say you have a right to water, electricity, internet service, sewer service, etc.

Meanwhile the conservatives in the US are saying that corporations have a right to choose who they serve based upon their religious beliefs. See the SCOTUS Masterpiece Cakeshop ruling on whether they must serve a gay couple.

I'm pretty sure I could argue that Nazism is against someone's religious beliefs....

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by gruez on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:16PM (#37317246)
>Meanwhile the conservatives in the US are saying that corporations have a right to choose who they serve based upon their religious beliefs.

This gotcha only works when your opponent is pro business and you want them oppressed by businesses. However republicans are starting to turn anti-business. Take for instance the kerfuffle Ron DeSantis had with Disney.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by bb88 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:36PM (#37317370)
Sure, conservatives have been pushing rights for conservative businesses.

But once those religious rights have been granted, it's possible for that pendulum to swing the other way.

Must a power company, say, give power to the NY State NAMBLA headquarters? That's the easy one.

The more complex one is arguing that the insurrection was against your religious beliefs (because your religion espouses non-violence), and then the power company could say cut off power to offices held by congress people that supported the J6 criminals?

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by ImJamal on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:19AM (#37317607)
>Meanwhile the conservatives in the US are saying that corporations have a right to choose who they serve based upon their religious beliefs. See the SCOTUS Masterpiece Cakeshop ruling on whether they must serve a gay couple.

Unfortunately you are misinformed. The baker was quite willing to serve a gay couple. The Supreme Court never said the baker can not serve gays if he doesn't want to.

What the Supreme Court said is a baker cannot be forced to engage in an activity (gay wedding) that he disagrees with even if it is as remote as a baking the cake. The baker made it clear if they wanted a plain cake he would have sold it to them.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by EarlKing on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:44AM (#37317765)
The constitution doesn't say a lot of things. The constitution is not the whole of the law, any more than the bible is the whole of religion. At the end of the day I think we've reached a point where the majority of the proletariat believe that they have a natural right to the freedom of thought and expression, meaning that they should not be subject to acts of force or fraud by private parties to interfere with that right. Further, the same believe that anyone engaged in commerce with the public should function as a public accommodation and offer their services to all and sundry. This just happens to be a very inconvenient opinion for bourgeoisie imperialists intent on silencing the proletariat to maintain their death grip on society.

To put it simply: Maybe if you'd just let people gripe away in peace on their little gossip forums you wouldn't have so many problems in the world.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:12AM (#37318300)
>let people gripe away in peace on their little gossip forums

Funny way to describe "swatting campaigns and content that is illegal in many countries" but ok

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by EarlKing on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:19AM (#37318343)
> swatting campaigns

Do you have evidence that Null knew about people organizing these on KiwiFarms and openly endorsed them or at least tolerated them? Do you have anything to confer upon him some kind of liability for the actions of his users other than "I don't like him so fuck him"?

> illegal in many countries

No one cares whether it's illegal in any random country. Other countries ban lots of things for utterly cretinous reasons.

Attempting to characterize a gossip column as a "harassment" site isn't working. The EFF is openly commenting now because people like you who are pushing that narrative have failed, and have managed to piss off all the wrong people. You might want to consider rethinking your position.

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @04:59PM (#37329049)
They post people's home addresses. Calling it gossip is a lie.
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by EarlKing on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @09:17PM (#37331315)
Some people have posted home addresses... just like some people have posted child pornography on Twitter. Does that mean Twitter is responsible for their actions? That is the key point that none of you seem willing to touch because you're desperate to latch onto any pretext to see KiwiFarms removed from the Internet. What is it you're so desperate to hide? What is it on there that you don't want people to read?
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:10AM (#37318287)
You think hosting a website is a right?
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by CogitoCogito on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:29AM (#37318404)
Whether it is or is not certainly depends on the laws in the jurisdiction in question, but personally I'd say it should be.
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @05:00PM (#37329064)
Russian malware authors agree with you.
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @04:53AM (#37319267)
Website host is not a utility. ISP is a utility. Having an ISP, much like having mail service, should always be possible for everyone.

I think website hosts should be able to drop people for most reasons, but that's not what's happening here

Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by chonkerz on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @05:00PM (#37329058)
This is literally what's happening here. No one is cutting off the admin's personal Internet connection to get on the Internet. They're taking his website down because it's full of abuse.
Re:ISPs Should Not Police Online Speech – No Matter How Awfu... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @07:54PM (#37330716)
They're cutting off the company's internet connection, which isn't significantly better than a personal connection. The entity doing this is not the web host, it's the ISP. I would be fine with a web host refusing service, but that is not what is happening.