Is public school really that cruel these days? I have a 10 year old, and everyone in her class seems so wholesome and... exceedingly tolerant for lack of a better phrase. Compared to when I was a 10 year old where public school was a Lord Of The Flies thunderdome with bullying, and shoving people into lockers, and fights, and in-groups and out-groups and nerds vs. jocks, all the cruel 80s stereotypes.

I see absolutely zero need to pull her out. The academics are ok--not what an expensive private school might offer, but they track well with what I was learning at that age. The social/institutional environment is much better than when I was a kid.

The few parents I know who homeschool (admittedly, mostly from my wife's church group) do so for religious separatism reasons, not for educational outcome. They object to public school on ideological grounds and perceived "indoctrination," not on the academics.

It's probably impossible to generalize among all public schools. Some are and some aren't to various degrees depending on a thousand factors. The problem is more like, how do you realize if a particular public school class is bad and what are your practical options once you do.

I don't know about today and don't have kids. This was in the late 70's/ 80's. It was as you say, Lord of The Flies indeed. Good to hear maybe it has improved. Or maybe the bullying is all online now.

I'd like to point out, 10 years old isn't really in the thick of it yet. Might rethink your statement say, Junior year of high school.

> Is public school really that cruel these days?

This is a good question, but how am I supposed to find out the answer with any real certainty short of exposing my kids to it? Not really a sane option. "Hey, kiddo, go dance on the minefield and see if there are any left" isn't my style of parenting.

> Sure, there's the occasional story of extreme bullying that happens to make the news, but it seems like these are far outliers these days.

It's quite possible that the extremes are just the ones that make the news. The low-intensity torment is in my opinion just as traumatizing, but unless some parent raises a big stink about it then it usually doesn't even rise to the level of neighborhood gossip.

Still lots of problems (more in middle and high school) but it’s easier to today to discover and move to where the schools are better. Homeschooling in areas with poor public schools tends to be focused on academics and a better environment although the desire to provide religious education exists everywhere. An area where few homeschooling families exist would probably have high graduation rates and low crime rates in its public schools.

Excessive tolerance is a form of cruelty.

That argument held sway with me for a long time, but not anymore.

Our kids get a decent amount of socialization through all the activities they're involved in, and when other kids find out they're homeschooled, their response is more often surprise than "Oh, that figures."

The idea that kids learn social skills best by being thrown into a rigid, institutional environment surrounded by hundreds of other kids whose social skills are also far from developed is kinda silly, though. It's like saying criminals will reform themselves best by surrounding themselves with lots of other criminals.

One good thing about the rigid institutional environment, for better or worse, is that having exposure to that rigidity and institutional side of things can at least give kids some skills in the long run for navigating the anti-human organizations that form so much of our public and private sectors.

Almost all other societal structures are way less rigid and tyrannical.

Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail.

Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you.

> Name another institution where inmates have to ask for permission to go to the toilet, besides school and jail.

Busy call centers, fast food restaurants. Factories: assembly line workers. Chemical plants: process operators.

I don't mean to be snarky but I think you would be surprised at the percentage of the population working jobs where they cannot simply leave their station without permission.

> Edit: or another institution where people can attack you and you can’t call police to help you.

The military: active duty personnel deployed to war zones.

That's a ridiculous statement and has nothing to do with the institution. We have decided as a society that the police shouldn't be involved in petty children's fights. Seems like the right call to me.

Many, many workplaces keep a close eye on when you use the restroom, for how long, and who else is at the same time.

It's disturbingly common.

I think that’s the primary benefit of the school system

I met a couple homeschooled people in college. And both of those were really well read, well spoken and creative people. But they were _not_ used to the way we all get kicked in the head all the time. they were pretty confused, hurt, and withdrawn.

The idea that kids learn social skills from… socializing daily is silly? Your straw man is about as weak as they get.

> Being cool is so important at that age in that setting.

is it ?

Maybe it just comes down to personality

In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play

> In my mind I was so uncool that the only way to win was not to play

I mean, if you are thinking about it in those terms it sounds like it was pretty important.

A relative is homeschooling their kids, and they’re not doing a great job of it academically, but those kids are some of the sweetest, most light hearted and caring kids I’ve ever been around.

I learned some socialization at public school, sure. I also learned what it was to have a bureaucracy just roll over you because nobody involved cared enough to notice you were there. Those kids will have that experience eventually, but I’m all for delaying it.

Being sweet or conforming to a parents/adults idea of what a good child should act like does not equate to good social skills. It means they understand how to act around adults, likely, because they are around their parents regularly and have that behavior engrained.

That has nothing to do with their ability to socialize with their peers. This is a pretty common home school kid issue. Great with adults. Not great with other kids. Adults don't care because they are well behaved and the kids dont know how to vocalize that they have difficulties socializing with others their age.

The socialization argument is nonsense. Schools as factory farms came first -- with no regard for socialization -- then the socialization argument was made later to rationalize it.

Forcing kids (by constructing their environment in such a way) to have only relationships with kids that are precisely the same age as them is weird. Some healthy relationships with people who are a few years older in positive. Older kids/people need to be embedded in the social circle as role models. You get less bullying and should get faster social development. Homeschooling done right is more similar to how kids developed socially in our ancestral past (all the way up to a few hundred years ago). It's also more similar to how kids develop in much of the world outside of the West where larger family units are more tight knit.

Yeah things were much better when most people were illiterate but Protestants had to go and mess it up with their ideas that people should be able to read.

There is no and has never been any true evidence that home schooled kids are worse at socialization then the ones that go to a traditional school, at least as far as I can tell. It's a meme that people propagate because it is "common sense," but none of the studies I've looked at supports it.

I was homeschooled and the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming.

Try finding adults who were homeschooled who speak fondly of the experience.

I have known several. I've also known an overwhelming number of people from public and private schools who hated those experiences.