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Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @08:59AM (#37272470)
Humans aren’t perfect, so you assume that risk by being unprotected near cars. Taking that risk is permitted and thus bikes are allowed on the road, but don’t confuse that for equity.

Humanity has collectively decided cars have more utility than bikes. It’s possible to completely isolate bikes and cars onto separate networks that don’t overlap but humanity decided it’s generally not worth the investment. Thus your given the freedom to take risks, but the general assumption is you’re partially at fault in any collision.

Disagree and downvote all you want, but that’s simply reality whatever you personally prefer.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by eertami on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:36AM (#37272780)
This is likely a regional thing. I assure you this is not the attitude in the Netherlands and other central European countries. Legally speaking it is also completely incorrect here.

But different regions will have different laws and public opinion.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by steveBK123 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:52AM (#37272936)
Yes, and the thing is the US is just a bigger place where things/people are more spaced out.. so the distances travelled tend to be much greater.

Even within cities it's pretty normal to have a 10+ mile commute each way. My commute would be about that far and include crossing 2 bridges, one of which would be a not insignificant climb (350ft). And I live relatively close to the office relative to many of my over-30 peers.

My wife & I both have our parents "nearby" or at least, relative to most of our friends.. nearby. That is to say, 75 miles away. My siblings live 200mi away in different directions, about 400mi apart. Etc.

Just a big place, some stuff works different. :shrug:

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:51AM (#37273922)
Now, why do you suppose it is commutes are longer in the US?
Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by steveBK123 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @12:53PM (#37274517)
More space to expand

Cities are expensive and not building enough housing

People move further out due to cost

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:42PM (#37275663)
Annnnnd why is it that cities aren't building denser housing?

(it's because it's illegal. Because of parking minimums, density maximums, and level of service rules. Which exist because of cars. Which you need to go 10 miles because everything is so far apart. Because of those rules. Because of cars.)

https://youtu.be/bnKIVX968PQ?si=BdOqmdqkVj5oN7I6

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:54AM (#37272956)
At least in the US there’s a meaningful difference between killing a cyclist on the road and a pedestrian on a sidewalk.

The law may not make a distinction, but prosecutors and juries definitely do.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by jacquesm on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:38AM (#37272791)
> Humanity has collectively decided cars have more utility than bikes.

No, humanity has collectively definitely not decided that. Bikes have utility, so do cars. Their domains of utility superficially overlap ('transportation') but both serve well in different contexts. Where it goes wrong is where faulty reasoning such as this is used to prioritize one kind of traffic over another, which especially given that it is nearly impossible for a cyclist to kill a car driver but trivial for a car driver to kill a cyclist (or indeed any other user of the road) is kind of bizarre.

The road is a shared resource and traffic rules and infrastructure should be 100% based on inclusivity and safety for all participants. And if one class of participants routinely endangers the others then they should be held accountable, no matter what the perceived utility.

To speak for all of humanity is ridiculous, humanity isn't that homogeneous and besides you can be a driver today and cyclist tomorrow or the other way around.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by atdrummond on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:43AM (#37272842)
OP’s point is that revealed preferences matter and I think they did a relatively decent job expressing the state of those revealed preferences.

That doesn’t make anything in your response less valid about how we actually should treat these resources.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by jacquesm on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:04AM (#37273058)
The whole comment shows a locally centered viewpoint that somehow gets blown up into worldwide support. I don't buy that. There are plenty of places where the bicycle is the dominant mode of transportation. And what's with the 'downvote all you want' nonsense.
Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:09AM (#37273093)
Compare the population of all bike friendly areas with the global population it’s clear what’s the dominant situation. Overall things are improving, but most of the world isn’t currently particularly bike safe.

Also, it’s a bike friendly thread. I am well aware of the audience reading the post, the point was to encourage discussion rather than unthinking reflexive action.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by jacquesm on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:20AM (#37273177)
There are many 'bike friendly areas' outside of the West notably in Asia. Obviously all of this is dynamic but to present it as a 'done deal' because we have made a decision, especially as 'humanity' is ridiculous. And pre-emptive bitching about downvotes is not something to expect from an account as old as yours.
Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:24AM (#37273211)
Who said it’s a done deal in the future, things can change. I would personally ban cars, Taxi, Uber etc in NYC, but that’s currently a minority opinion.

Also there are a few bike friendly areas inside the US, it’s just uncommon.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by david-gpu on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:42AM (#37272829)
I hope nobody you love gets injured by a distracted driver.
Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:13AM (#37273129)
Sure, but one way to ensure that is for them to think in terms of what is rather than what should be. I would love to buy my niece and nephew a bike, but doing so would be a serious risk to their safety.

There’s awesome bike trails near them but they have no way to get there safely on their own.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by doix on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:08AM (#37272540)
> Thus your given the freedom to take risks, but the general assumption is you’re partially at fault in any collision.

I guess you mean because you suffer more, rather than legally? Because I'm pretty sure if you hit a cyclist with a car in the UK, you're almost definitely at fault (in the car).

Not that it matters if you're heavily injured. Similarly I hate being a pedestrian in the US. It's terrifying with the turning on red, even though I know I'm in the right, I don't trust the car to stop.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by bigDinosaur on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:09AM (#37272546)
This is not a decision that 'humanity' took, only poor planning of cities which now many people take as just the way things are, their lifestyles largely determined by a very few number of men 70 years ago. There are many places that do it better. Bicyclists are often forced by law to take the unnecessary risk of riding with cars (e.g. by making it illegal to ride on sidewalks).

I have to admit that personally I find there's literally no topic like bicycles that gets people to jump from logical arguments to just spewing hatred (or total disregard) and your comment is just the precursor to the literal dehumanisation that cyclists face on roads.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:19AM (#37273170)
Completely banning the sale of cars was and still is an option.

The possibility of doing so in any but the most limited situations is currently unthinkable by most people. If I could wave a magic wind I would ban all cars and Taxi in NYC, but that’s a seriously minority opinion.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:50AM (#37273916)
Just not massively subsidizing car infrastructure would be a start
Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by throwaway290 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:06AM (#37272523)
> Humanity has collectively decided cars have more utility than bikes.

Not humanity only the planners of unwalkable/uncyclable sprawling towns with bad public transportation...

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by steveBK123 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:42AM (#37272836)
Yeah, that's sort of where I am on bikes v cars debate. There's reckless bikers and reckless motorists, but the reckless motorists are obviously far more dangerous to others.

However, the rationalizing I see from some cyclists is like "just world fallacy" level stuff to me. I've seen enough stupidity on the road to understand that using a bike in mixed traffic is an extremely at-your-own-risk situation, and regardless of what the laws are, it doesn't matter if you're dead. Drunks/distracted drivers and random accidents don't care what the law says.

NYC has a half decent (especially in North Brooklyn) network of concrete barrier protected bike lanes, and yet I still see a tremendous number of cyclists going wrong way, and/or on unprotected roads literally 1 block from the pristine protected bike network, helmetless, playing with their phones, etc.

As someone who occasionally drives in the city (in order to exit/enter on weekends), the reckless disregard for their own lives is.. to me, poor risk management. And my driving is all of 1-2 miles to get from my parking garage to the nearest highway onramp (which some activists want to abolish.. which would leave me to.. drive locally, further, in more mixed traffic, for longer? lol).

I operate in the world as it is, not in the world as I imagine it should be. Cyclists are too small a minority of road users in US, even in most dense urban cities where it could/should work, for us to upend the entire transport infrastructure for them.

It reminds me as well of the Zoomers who only want climate change solved if it overturns the entire socioeconomic order away from capitalism, lol. Cool story, but do you want a solution or to be mad?

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:43AM (#37272837)
" Humanity has collectively decided cars have more utility than bikes. "

I don't think this can be taken at face value. Cars make the road (or stroad more often) worse for biking and walking, so more people drive, in a self reinforcing feedback loop.

I shouldn't have had to move to the Netherlands to be able to ride my bike for my daily needs and feel safe.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by atrettel on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:55AM (#37272967)
> Humanity has collectively decided cars have more utility than bikes.

Humanity has not "collectively" decided to prefer cars over other modes of transit. Other countries, most notably the Netherlands, do in fact prefer a much more multi-modal transportation system over a car-centric one like in the United States.

Moreover, your comment ignores the contentious history about this decision in the United States, which was very much imposed on many communities without their consent and to the advantage of a select few who benefited from private automobiles over public transport and other modes of transportation like bicycles. I suggest reading historian Peter Nolan's book "Fighting Traffic: The Dawn of the Motor Age in the American City" if you are curious.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:05AM (#37273067)
The Netherlands is unusual in instructive ways here. If everywhere were an extremely flat high population density area we would already have noticeably different infrastructure globally. I suspect E-Bikes will do quite a lot to increase bike infrastructure over time, but that’s the future not how things are today.

As to the decision making process, it’s very true that humanity doesn’t hand out power equally. But, while we can strongly disagree with the system that doesn’t actually change what currently exists without action.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:44PM (#37275678)
The Netherlands also had a lot of pissed off moms who were furious that drivers kept slaughtering their children. It didn't come easy, there were fistfights over it.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bic...

But a lot of kids are alive who would be dead without their efforts.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2023 @06:36PM (#37277521)
Moms in the Netherlands aren’t that different from moms around the world, and it’s rather insulting to suggest they are. EX: MADD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothers_Against_Drunk_Driving

The difference is how much kids where biking, which has a lot to do with the utility of biking in a flat high density country.

Utility -> Use -> Risk -> Deaths -> Change

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by CalRobert on Sunday August 27, 2023 @07:30AM (#37281578)
Yet the US also had high rates of walking and biking among kids in the past.

https://www.walkbiketoschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/...

""" In 1969, 48 percent of students in grades K through eight (ages 5 through 14) walked or bicycled to school.1

 In 2009, only 13 percent of students in grades K through eight walked or bicycled to school.1

 In 1969, 89 percent of students in grades K through eight who lived within one mile of school usually walked or bicycled to school.2

 In 2009, only 35 percent students in grades K through eight students who lived within a mile of school usually walked or bicycled to school even once a week. """

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by Retric on Sunday August 27, 2023 @08:02AM (#37281816)
Getting to and from school was safer than walking around normally due to crossing guards. This is a global phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_guard

From an American perspective the temptation is to bring up suburbs etc, but being bike unfriendly is a global thing. It’s really about the physical effort to travel X distance and therefore the reasonableness of biking such distances to see a friend.

Re:Luckily I got hit by a car by ollysb on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:28AM (#37273242)
Amsterdam has 3.5 times the number of bikes vs cars. An outlier for sure but evidence at least that it's an alternative people can be happy with.