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Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by Calavar on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:35PM (#37081413)
This is a total fluff piece. We've known for decades that the thymus is an important part of the immune system. It's not an organ that's been believed to be vestigial, like the appendix.

> For the study, Kooshesh mined data from 1,146 adult patients who had undergone thymus removal, alongside demographically matched control patients who had undergone similar surgeries but kept their thymus

Sure, you can demographically match all you want, but I don't think this is a research question that can be answered with a retrospective analysis. The problem is that you haven't controlled for why surgeons decided to remove the thymus in some cases and not in others. Was the disease more severe in patients who got thymectomies? Was it differences in training between the surgeons? Was it just an arbitrary decision on the part of the surgeons? This is a critical confounder regardless of whether you've matched the demographics. You really need a randomized control study to answer this sort of question.

> Although the risk of autoimmune disease did not differ substantially between the groups in the overall primary cohort (relative risk, 1.1; 95% CI, 0.8 to 1.4), a difference was found when patients with preoperative infection, cancer, or autoimmune disease were excluded from the analysis (12.3% vs. 7.9%; relative risk, 1.5; 95% CI, 1.02 to 2.2)

What? What is this? Was this subgroup a preregistered, or did they just go fishing when their primary hypothesis didn't pan out?

I'd categorize this study as noteworthy, but not groundbreaking the way the press statement is selling it.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by mlyle on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:44PM (#37081536)
This is a research question you can't answer with a prospective analysis either, because it's not ethical in most cases to randomize whether you're removing a body part.

The best we're going to do is a careful case control study (and research in animal models). And the evidence is enough to imply strongly that we should expend a little more effort to avoid removing the thymus.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by Calavar on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:49PM (#37081588)
> This is a research question you can't answer with a prospective analysis either, because it's not ethical to randomize whether you're removing a body part.

But that's exactly what we did with the appendix, multiple times [1, 2].

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26080338/

[2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2014320

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by mlyle on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:50PM (#37081612)
I had thought about this and had amended this to "in most cases" before you posted.

If the standard of care is removing the appendix, and you have a strong reason to believe that something less may be superior, you may be able to conduct a randomized trial.

But any other combination of facts is going to be hard for an IRB to swallow.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by jjtheblunt on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:46PM (#37081559)
Isn't the universally known T cell named with a T because of the thymus which imparts their programming? Like known for decades?
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by anon84873628 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:49PM (#37081585)
Yes, but some believed this function was most relevant in adolescence, with the importance fading in adulthood. The purpose of the research is to understand the role of the organ in later age.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by readthenotes1 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @05:25PM (#37081993)
More now, since I was a part of the other universe that didn't know this!
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by anon84873628 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:50PM (#37081609)
Well, if the study had found no significant correlation, that would have been interesting information. I'll still applaud the researchers on this one.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by joe__f on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:56PM (#37081670)
I believe that the appendix is now understood to be a store for gut flora so that the microbiome can regrow after an infection or bad episode of diarrhoea etc.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by bookmark1231 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @06:09PM (#37082403)
It’s been conjectured by some researchers that maybe this is the case, particularly for infants. But there’s very little evidence for it. As far as I’m aware there have been no studies that are able to statistically distinguish between people with and without an appendix in terms of actual heath outcomes
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by delfinom on Thursday August 10, 2023 @06:34PM (#37082591)
Otoh, I wouldn't say that dismisses the appendix having a potential role. Part of the problem is we barely have a grasp on gut flora and it's full impact on human health, and several studies show that impact can be over years including potentially being one cause of dementia.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by runnerup on Thursday August 10, 2023 @06:44PM (#37082658)
I believe it’s only posited to be useful for isolated small groups where everyone might get the same stomach bug at the same time, and have no other humans around with a healthy gut biome to “re-infect” them. Which explains why in dense modern society we couldn’t find a difference that the appendix makes, because we get reinfected with healthy microbiome from sharing germs with all the other humans in our big cities - some of whom didn’t just get a terrible stomach bug at the same time as us.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by hn_throwaway_99 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @07:39PM (#37083152)
> Which explains why in dense modern society we couldn’t find a difference that the appendix makes, because we get reinfected with healthy microbiome from sharing germs with all the other humans in our big cities - some of whom didn’t just get a terrible stomach bug at the same time as us.

Do you have any citations for that? Perhaps it differs by city and region, but many modern cities with good sanitation systems are exceptionally clean - you're not getting frequently reinfected by others' gut flora unless there is a catastrophic problem with the sewer system. People with things like C. difficile infection can have chronic disease for years, and fecal transplants have only recently been recognized as a good treatment in those cases - point being you have to have an actual fecal transplant, you're not just going to "get reinfected with healthy microbiome from sharing germs with all the other humans".

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by quickthrower2 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @09:02PM (#37083863)
If true, lockdowns would have had an effect on those without an appendix?

It would be interest to see how historically contact with X other people has changed over time. I don’t think you need a big city to mix with a lot of people. I imagine in older times there are fewer people but likely to be closer to each other - people sharing beds (not stupidly associating bed with sex) and tribes of families mingling close lower instead of nuclear family. By contrast the city apartment is the hermetic seal around a small number of people choosing to live together. But a modern concept: corporations, jobs and careers ensure people keep mixing up with people outside.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by taneq on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:22AM (#37086706)
If that’s the case, shouldn’t we see more adverse effects of appendectomy in areas with stricter hygiene customs?
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by feedsmgmt on Thursday August 10, 2023 @08:11PM (#37083433)
That is my understanding. Same function as tonsils.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by JamesLeonis on Thursday August 10, 2023 @08:50PM (#37083739)
You are correct. The Wikipedia page has a diagram explaining the process [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appendix_(anatomy)#/media/File...

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by kvgr on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:42AM (#37086456)
Fully anecdotal, but I got my appendix removed at 19. After 2-3 years i started to have problems and found out that I can no longer process milk(protein), not allergy but intolerance and I started to have issues with "quality". I get bloated and my stomach hurts. Before that I had no issues and had perfect movement. So yeah I didn't "needed it" but quality of my life went down.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by danielheath on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:44AM (#37086824)
Possibly related, but that's a pretty common age to develop lactose intolerance in the general population.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by kvgr on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:05AM (#37086941)
Not lactose
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by MyneOutside on Friday August 11, 2023 @10:05AM (#37088812)
Milk allergies are different from being lactose intolerant. I developed a mild allergy to dairy in my 30 or so - or so it was discovered then. With lactose intolerance, you can at least take a pill - not so much for an actual allergy. My one child has a much more severe dairy allergy and will get a very upset stomach even with a little dairy.

We both have our appendix.

Though to your point, whether you can develop a milk allergy later in life I am not sure.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by kkoncevicius on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:51AM (#37086867)
In your case I would really doubt if apendix was the cause. As a teen I also loved milk, pancakes, pasta, etc, but around early 20s started to notice that they are bad for me. Now if I eat a lot of milk and glutamine I get digestive issues, skin rashes, etc. My apendix (afaik) is intact.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by contravariant on Thursday August 10, 2023 @05:01PM (#37081729)
I take it a relative risk of 1 is a null result?

If so a confidence interval of 1.02 to 2.2 after arbitrarily excluding some data is not exactly ground breaking.

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by nerdponx on Thursday August 10, 2023 @05:20PM (#37081938)
It's suggestive of p-hacking. "Look, the bottom of the interval is just above 1! Finally I can publish this."
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by outworlder on Thursday August 10, 2023 @08:27PM (#37083554)
> It's not an organ that's been believed to be vestigial, like the appendix.

Not vestigial evolutionary speaking, but doesn't it get less and less functional over a person's lifespan and gets replaced with fat tissue?

Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by echelon on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:02AM (#37086236)
Yes. This is why T cell activity decreases as one ages. The thymus is where naive T cells are generated, and the output dramatically slows after adolescence.
Re:Turns out lowly thymus may be saving your life by Brajeshwar on Thursday August 10, 2023 @09:11PM (#37083915)
Recently, while on my usual documentaries watch, I learnt that the appendix may no longer be considered appendix.

From Wikipedia[1], “The appendix was once considered a vestigial organ, but this view has changed since the early 2000s. Research suggests that the appendix may serve an important purpose as a reservoir for beneficial gut bacteria.”

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appendix_(anatomy)