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Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by gambiting on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @03:47AM (#36968146)
So I work in the video games industry(at one of the largest AAA publishers) so I can shed a little bit of light on it from our side - we used to have a guy here who worked for 30 years with us, was here right from the start. He said that yeah, he got the job by making some demos on his Amiga and literally going to the house of the owner and asking if he needed any help - and was hired on the spot, worked out of his bedroom for a while. 17 at the time.

Nowadays even for junior positions we wouldn't consider anyone without at least a bachelors degree in CS, so that's at least 3 years of university - putting the minimum starting age with us at around ~21-22 years old. I myself started just after my masters degree, at 23 years old.

I think that it does mean we are missing out on a lot of very self driven, ambitious candidates - but even requiring a minimum of CS education from candidates we get in excess of 1000 applications for every junior position. I understand why recruitment would be reluctant to start looking at candidates without any formal qualifications.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by _the_inflator on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:13AM (#36968319)
Self taught myself, only starting now after decades in the software industry (from dev to management) studying Math and CS on a bachelor degree out of curiosity and to gain more knowledge.

Early games needed visuals and that was something results were important, which demo guys delivered on machines with still very limited resources. Formal education for games was lacking behind during the 90th. After all, games as a broad industry was a new concept. (EA once produced games for the C64.)

This has changed. With more and more abstractions and more processing power it is more and more important to work on algorithms not hacks.

Most self taughts lack broader concepts, abstractions and especially algorithms. I had to learn everything besides hacking my way into Frontend development.

Would I look out for folks with no degree? Yes and no. I depends on the use case.

On the other side: the world is filled up with mediocre code from people with degrees. There is no guarantee. Only constant learning - and this is a supoerpower at least some self-taughts have.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by psykotic on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @05:13AM (#36968682)
> Most self taughts lack broader concepts, abstractions and especially algorithms.

As a self-taught who later went to university for pure mathematics (which I got interested in through game programming), that was not my experience with the late 90s, early 2000s generation of self-taught game programmers. I think you have to go back 5 to 10 years earlier for that stereotype to have merit; the transition from 2D to 3D filtered out some people.

In the post-Quake generation, the sexy thing for budding game programmers was 3D graphics programming. For the most part you had no choice [1] but to read, understand and implement SIGRAPH papers and doctoral dissertations to learn the ropes, which in turn forced us to learn a lot of the formal prerequisites albeit unevenly. And there were a lot of advanced data structures involved with visibility determination (and later level of detail), which was the focal point of graphics in the Quake 1 and 2 era before it fell to the wayside once the dominance of GPUs made more brute-force approaches the right choice. So whether you liked it or not, you had to master a decent swath of university-level CS and math.

The main thing self-taughts generally lacked when joining the industry were the same thing all new employees lacked: they don't yet know how to work in teams, they don't know how to manage time, scope and complexity (though it helps if you've worked on larger personal projects of your own), they cannot make long-term engineering trade-offs (reliability, cost of making changes early vs late, flexibility vs performance, etc) because they haven't gone through full project cycles, and so on.

[1] There were a few useful resources like Abrash's Dr. Dobbs articles on Quake which were partially pre-digested for easier consumption by programmers, but it was still daunting if you didn't understand the math. And the rate of progress was so high in this period that the few reliable sources of how-to information were so quickly out of date that you _had_ to keep up with the academic research and experiment by implementing and improving it yourself.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by dschuetz on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:28AM (#36968425)
> Nowadays even for junior positions we wouldn't consider anyone without at least a bachelors degree in CS, so that's at least 3 years of university

Why?

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by gambiting on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:42AM (#36968514)
Because without this criteria our number of applicants for junior positions would be unfeasible to review and process. It already is, frankly, and I've heard talks about narrowing it down further to only people with masters degrees just to bring the number down to something that can actually be reviewed by a human.

It's a tough line to walk - as a hiring manager I'd love to talk to every promising candidate no matter what education they have, but equally I also wouldn't want to do the job of recruitment where they take weeks just to sort through the absolute flood of applications that we get.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by dschuetz on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @06:56AM (#36969233)
I see a problem here. Hiring is work that needs to be done, because it is not going away if a company wants to find talent.

It seems to me that instead of putting more effort into "sorting through the absolute flood of applications", or perhaps even finding a solution for that problem, HR just ramps the qualification bar even higher disregarding the possibility that higher education is not actually needed, and that talent is not necessarily reflected in any sort of degree. At the same time, it de-values higher education.

You absolutely expect employees having the "best" education, giving 100% and going the extra mile without actually willing to put up the work on hiring talent based on reality.

Ergo: AAA studios are setting up to fail finding talent themselves. Talent without university/college degrees rarely get a chance, so, with enough energy, they start doing stuff by themselves.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by gambiting on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:08AM (#36969312)
I agree with you, the problem at a large corporation like ours is that the process ostensibly "works" - the candidates we are hiring are good and it's hard to argue that by expanding more effort(and more money) on widening our pool of candidates would result in even better candidates than the ones we have. The argument you'd need to fight against is basically "we already have a 1000 candidates, if you can't find someone suitable within a thousand people then maybe it's not the candidate pool that's the problem". The pool could be better and include people who are just as good(or better) but don't have a university degree - but again, that's money that would need to be spent and it's very hard to make such an argument in a corporate setting where people who make these decisions aren't the ones participating in the process.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by dschuetz on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:26AM (#36969414)
> [...] that's money that would need to be spent and it's very hard to make such an argument in a corporate setting where people who make these decisions aren't the ones participating in the process.

I understand that, from economic perspective at least. "Is it worth it?" is a phrase I hear (often also saying myself) a lot when talking about investing time=money in something. I am afraid talent is absolutely worth it, and it's up to the hiring company, not the applicants, to solve that problem.

On the applicants side, especially those who are well aware of their talents, they also think "Is it worth it all? Getting a degree just to be able to apply for positions in big-time companies? I don't think so."

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by dagw on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:50AM (#36968575)
At a guess because there is over all very little need for 'game developers' at AAA studios. Had a friend that worked a AAA studio and he spent most of his time just working on improving and fixing collision detection performance in their game engine. Had another friend who only worked on the asset management pipeline. Another wrote tools for mesh optimisation. Others I know just worked on various tasks related to writing high performance low latency server code. All of these are skill you're more likely to learn during a CS degree rather than as a self taught indie game developer.

Nobody I know who has gone to a large AAA studio has actually worked on game mechanics or game play in any meaningful way. One poor sod I know, who loved computer games, got tasked with working on the framework for building in-game microtransaction stores into their games.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by ido on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:06AM (#36968267)
If i got an applicant with an impressive itch.io page full of games they've made and released themselves I'd interview them even if they're 18 (I'm not sure about child labor laws for kids younger than that).
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by gambiting on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:07AM (#36968285)
Sure so would I - the problem is that they wouldn't go through the first filter of recruitment. As an engineering hiring manager I'd never even get to see their CV in the first place.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by sanitycheck on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:11AM (#36968303)
Then that recruiting process is broken and you're missing out on potentially some of the best candidates.

But it's probably not worth fixing from a boring economic perspective, if you already have too many excellent candidates to employ.

Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by gambiting on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:20AM (#36968370)
Well, that's exactly it, sad as that is. How many more recruiters are you going to hire to screen your candidates if the process you have currently does yield good candidates already. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I also don't have a good solution for the problem at hand - 1000+ applications for every junior role which all have to be looked at and filtered at least somewhat so you get a pool of people to actually interview.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by sanitycheck on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @05:56AM (#36968881)
A company could establish two separate streams for recruiting - aim to take 90% of candidates through the normal process, and the other 10% based on notable independent achievements/contributions. Still filtered, just differently. Not perfect, but might have interesting results.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by dagw on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:13AM (#36968325)
I wonder if part of the 'problem' is that AAA game development has gotten very huge and specialised. They just don't need 'full stack' developers the way that smaller studios did. I've worked with several people who worked at AAA game studios, and very few of them actually developed games in any meaningful way.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by wiz21c on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:12AM (#36968314)
not in the industry anymore but I'd argue that, as far as 3D engines go, truly understanding an engine implies a breadth of knowledge much wider that what was necessary to make "simple" (by the time it was tough) 3D textured triangles. Things got much more sophisticated... Now you need at least some algebra, you need to understand datastructures, light behaviour, memory management, etc. Sure you can learn on the spot, but it's going to take time.
Re:One thing that has changed in the professional game indus... by baud147258 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @04:13AM (#36968326)
> we are missing out on a lot of very self driven, ambitious candidates

Maybe they'll end up joining/founding indie companies instead of AAA companies