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Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by zer8k on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:48PM (#36948578)
Nah, SO is really toxic. There are plenty of examples and probably dozens of blog posts illustrating it. It took two seconds to find two of MANY meta posts [0][1]. In fact one answer to the posts here illustrates what looks like at least a dozen similar posts. ChatGPT is just hastening an already well deserved death. I have not heard a positive opinion about SO in my professional network in years. Everyone passively consumes SO but a community built on contribution can't live on passive consumption. If the community is so high huffing it's own farts it drives away the exact thing it needs there's no good end for it.

[0] https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342779/what-about-t...

[1] https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/262791/the-rudeness...

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by matsemann on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:52PM (#36948627)
Did you read your own links? I feel they explain it well. Strict moderation isn't toxic. It can feel harsh, but it isn't toxic. The rudeness is people joining a forum, spending zero effort to understand the rules or etiquette, and then demanding others helping them for free without putting any effort in.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by greedo on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:14PM (#36948930)
This view is exactly why SO is dying. It's elitist and exclusionary. It's the same as the grognards who autoreply RTFM to everyone.

SO could have been a place where someone could post a question, and a decent search algorithm could offer answers from previously answered questions; if it was a unique question then it could be opened to answers. Instead, SO decided you needed to earn the privilege of posting a question by answering questions posed by others. That right off the bat excludes a ton of people who don't have the time to wait for a question in their domain, and answer it before 1000 other people.

Sure, it's the Eternal September for tech sites. Comes with the territory. If you don't want people to visit your site (and contribute moderation and content for free), be hostile to new users. Reward aggressive closing of questions. Sure is a good way to drive away anyone but the most pedantic control freaks.

I used to refer people to SO when they would come to me with a question I couldn't answer, (I even have an SO t-shirt hanging in my closet) but now I'd only do that to my worst enemies.

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by matsemann on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:18PM (#36948982)
> SO decided you needed to earn the privilege of posting a question by answering questions posed by others

This is false. You can post both questions and answers without any rep.

How people get the basics of SO wrong and still have such a strong opinion on how it works baffles me all the time.

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by greedo on Monday July 31, 2023 @09:55PM (#36951409)
Oh I'm wrong. You get all of ONE karma point to use for either a question (that will get closed) or one answer. Earning karma is fundamentally impossible for anyone who isn't living on SO.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by matsemann on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @04:37AM (#36953768)
You were wrong. Accept it, don't be so toxic.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by greedo on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @09:49AM (#36955923)
I'm sorry, when did I ask you for tone-policing? You seem to be taking any criticism of SO as overblown, and your comments are dismissive of how many user's post of how they felt they were treated on SO.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by matsemann on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @11:37AM (#36957426)
No, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. Complaining about SO in the way you're doing it is quite ironic.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by baud147258 on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:03PM (#36950064)
> SO could have been a place where someone could post a question, and a decent search algorithm could offer answers from previously answered questions

It already does that, though. The current iteration of the 'Ask question' page finishes with box proposing existing questions

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by greedo on Monday July 31, 2023 @09:55PM (#36951411)
This wasn't present when I was using SO.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by zer8k on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:57PM (#36948708)
The rudeness stems not from moderation but drive-by insults in comments and rapid dupe marking. That's covered in one of the several answers to the topics.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by robertlagrant on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:04PM (#36948799)
Rapid dupe marking is not rude.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by chrisjj on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:27PM (#36950285)
Only if it is accurate. And the vast majority of SO dupe marking fails to accord with any meaning of the word duplicate found outside SO.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by terribleperson on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:33PM (#36960345)
It is when the comment wasn't actually a dupe because of a subtle difference that was missed or because the 'original' question was years ago and all the answers would be different today.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by fatfingerd on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:14PM (#36948925)
I don't think strict moderation is inherently nontoxic, it's really quite toxic in a format like SO where no one knows how much effort may have gone in and what level people are at. Strict moderation usually works in conjunction with exclusivity to not just traumatize random members of the public.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by moralestapia on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:44PM (#36949287)
>Strict moderation isn't toxic.

And yet, the site died exactly because of that ...

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by chrisjj on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:23PM (#36950253)
> Strict moderation isn't toxic

SO's toxic moderation isn't strict.

strict /strɪkt/ adjective demanding that rules concerning behaviour are obeyed and observed.

Proper moderation for rules can be no more strict than are the rules themselves, and SO's are appallingly slack.

E.g. try and find the rule prohibiting duplicates. Mods have fabricated their own definition: "Questions may be duplicates if they have the same (potential) answers" (verbatim).

Using that bogus grounds to close a question that fully follows the delared rules is, yes, toxic.

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by bink on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:03PM (#36948791)
> ChatGPT is just hastening an already well deserved death.

If ChatGPT kills Stack Overflow and Reddit/Twitter block API access, where will it gets its answers from?

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by mike_hearn on Monday July 31, 2023 @05:56PM (#36949432)
Probably by doing the thing that can be used to answer 95% of all questions programmers ask each other: reading the manual.

Over time I've got used to it, but my colleagues tend to use me as a personal StackOverflow because I actually read the manuals for things we use/depend on. I regularly "amaze" them by answering obscure questions and when they ask how did you know that, the answer is always some variant on "by reading".

Now I just accept that most programmers hate reading and will prefer either just splashing around until they stumble on the answer by accident, or asking other people. It's frustrating but just how it is. I've had a senior programmer at a well known tech company tell me that now LLMs exist they+their team suddenly feel like writing documentation is worth it, because something will actually read it, and he was serious! They work on the assumption that if they write docs, zero programmers will read them! I don't think that's literally true but it might be directionally true.

I don't quite understand the assumption that LLMs are learning to code by reading StackOverflow anyway. Sure, it sounds plausible but we don't know how ChatGPT was trained. But it seems irrelevant now. GPT-4 has clearly learned programming to the level that it could generate self-training material just by reading the docs, writing experimental programs to try things out, and then summarizing its own findings which can be fed back into the next training round. At the moment it's not wired up to programming environments closely enough to do this, but it could be.

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by zer8k on Monday July 31, 2023 @06:53PM (#36949969)
I think this is unnecessarily reductive. When your day job is programming and you have strict sprint deadlines you don't have the hour or two it might take to leisurely stroll through manpages. Quickness is a result of industry demand not because it's correct. But that also doesn't make the programmers "hate reading". I have never had a PM/manager/TL/etc budget "documentation reading" into sprint points. I will hazard a guess and say you haven't either. So if you're not reading manpages in your free time Google/ChatGPT/SO/whatever is usually the best option.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by baud147258 on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:09PM (#36950123)
> I have never had a PM/manager/TL/etc budget "documentation reading" into sprint points.

When working with new software components, usually we're able to either work into our sprints an experimentation/PoC task, that'd include reading the doc or we just include into the estimation of the development task some time to read

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by pjmlp on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:42AM (#36953071)
How do you think we used to develop software before the Internet became widespread?
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by mike_hearn on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:37AM (#36954131)
I think reading documentation along with many other tasks is meant to be just budgeted into a task when planning it. You probably wouldn't write buggy code that doesn't work then say the sprint didn't have an explicit line item for debugging?
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by baud147258 on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:08PM (#36950107)
> Now I just accept that most programmers hate reading and will prefer either just splashing around

Usable documentation has to exists in the first place, though.

Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by mike_hearn on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:50AM (#36954186)
It's a bit of a circular problem. If programmers don't enjoy reading, they assume nobody else does either, so they don't bother writing proper docs, so the people who do read find there's no good docs and learn not to bother next time.
Re:The Fall of Stack Overflow by twelve40 on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:33PM (#36950340)
> If ChatGPT kills Stack Overflow and Reddit/Twitter block API access, where will it gets its answers from?

nowhere, they are cannibalizing their own source of data. They own Github so that's helpful, but still mostly just code, not a whole lot of discussion.