This is about "The National Gallery’s St Francis of Assisi (until 30 July)".
Dear Hacker News crowd, I am from Assisi. I was born and raised there. At age ~30 I left Italy and joined a then-small AWS as their first employee in Europe, and ended up living abroad for ~13 years. I now live in Venice, Italy.
If you're curious about Assisi, please ask. I'll do my best to answer.
Re:St Francis of Assisi
by rockyj on Sunday July 30, 2023 @11:13AM
(#36932006)
As a person born in India, I learned about St. Francis through numerous schools named after him. A lot of those schools were also shelters for animals, that is how I learned about the saint's love and compassion for all living things. His simple life and dedication fascinates me. Anything that helps me learn more about him, his teachings, or historical artifacts / pilgrimage is of interest to me.
Re:St Francis of Assisi
by asielen on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:20PM
(#36934301)
I am not really religious at all but something about the Basilica at Assisi made me feel something that I never felt anywhere else I have visited. Hard to describe, I sort of felt lighter after visiting. I sense of calm that maybe the closest I've felt was after a long session of guided meditation.
Re:St Francis of Assisi
by robga on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:49PM
(#36934617)
I went to the exhibition today. I’m not religious but it was wonderful. The highlight was Saint Francis of Assisi in Ecstasy (Caravaggio). In person, I could examine shepherds around a campfire in the background. Online, I see none of that detail. Amazing. It was also interesting to see so much about stigmata - TIL he was the first stigmatic.
The analogy would be that what we call Genius is secular sainthood today.
What I think about sainthood now is that "they forgave you when you won," as many of them could have been condemned as zealots and heretics, and many of them have what are effectively cults. But if you made enough of a mark, the church authorities had to weigh the balance and decide whether to ignore you as a heretic, or cannonize you as a saint. Not much has changed about the world today, and some of my favourite modern writers could have been said to have lived similar lives to saints.
What I have come to appreciate about that religion is related to St. Francis and the Franciscans, which is being in nature and relating to it. That is, without language or self, which seems heavy on the woo, but it can make stark the smallness and absurdities of our material world and the suffering we impose on each other as the effect of our opinions and perceptions filtered through ideas of self. It's meaningful that rivers and trees in nature don't care. The Japanese "forest bathing," is related, where I think people really benefit from being free from their own judgments of themselves and the percieved judgments of others.
Where it relates to Francis is that animals absolutely notice and behave differently around people who have let go of their self-ness(?) and wants, since "wanting" in nature necessarily means predation to every other being. Life consumes life, and something expressing want of any kind is going to eat something so you don't want to be around it. I suspect that hunger is something repellant to everything in nature, as you don't want to be around anything that is expressing it. If you've ever heard someone described as "a bit thirsty," it means to avoid them. There's some deep psychosexual stuff going on with that bit of slang, imo, but the story of Francis was how he had given up that need.
People certainly let go of that want and hunger of spirit without the Christian path, just ask those Buddhist monks how they live with tigers. But if someone wanted to emmulate Jesus's example from those stories in scripture, I think the stories of Francis communing with animals are an example of someone who was able to understand that facet of Jesus' presence, and to present himself to animals without the want and hunger that defines the self in many religions, and like the lions laying down in front of the martyrs thrown to them, the acceptance by other animal beings was evidence of faith curing that spiritual hunger. The message in the canonization of Francis is, we are not merely our hungers and thirsts, we are more, and we can exercise it by emmulating Christ's example as a map - or just find a way to figure it out for yourself through some other path.
If you are in fact a genius, consider that your odds of being cannonized as one are pretty low, just do good work and make things people want that relieve their suffering, and maybe just keep your head down for a bit, as one gets the impression the inquisitors these days are restless.
Re:St Francis of Assisi
by agumonkey on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:37PM
(#36935689)
> who have let go of their self-ness(?) and wants, since "wanting" in nature necessarily means predation to every other being
I was discussing this on a sociology discord until some PhD asserted that every being seeks domination unless it's dominated...
I found the view a little narrow and I much prefer the one you described, even though we are to be predatory at points in our live.. (biochemistry dictatest that) we can and often prefer to be in a selfless state, a sharing, a harmonizing one.
Re:St Francis of Assisi
by AlbertCory on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:33PM
(#36934442)
I grew up Catholic, but would be considered "lapsed" now.
Anyhow, St. Francis always struck me as one of the very nicest stories in Christianity. Whenever my Mom was kind to animals, someone always compared her to him.
Let the entire man be seized with fear; let the whole world tremble; let heaven exult when Christ, the Son of the Living God, is on the altar in the hands of the priest. O admirable height and stupendous condescension! O humble sublimity! O sublime humility! that the Lord of the universe, God and the Son of God, so humbles Himself that for our salvation He hides Himself under a morsel of bread.
– Francis of Assisi, Letter to all the Friars, ca. 1221
Dear Hacker News crowd, I am from Assisi. I was born and raised there. At age ~30 I left Italy and joined a then-small AWS as their first employee in Europe, and ended up living abroad for ~13 years. I now live in Venice, Italy.
If you're curious about Assisi, please ask. I'll do my best to answer.
Reading "name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco, I came across references and realized that there is a lot the we don't about his impact on the society.
Really, by now we should know and expect what happened afterwards as explained in the 2nd paragraph - https://povcrystal.blogspot.com/2013/01/st-francis-and-umber...
Assisi was a great stop on my drive through Italy in 2016.
[0]: https://simon.medium.com/2008-how-i-got-hired-by-amazon-com-...
https://web.archive.org/web/20080213013852/http://www.secund...
What I think about sainthood now is that "they forgave you when you won," as many of them could have been condemned as zealots and heretics, and many of them have what are effectively cults. But if you made enough of a mark, the church authorities had to weigh the balance and decide whether to ignore you as a heretic, or cannonize you as a saint. Not much has changed about the world today, and some of my favourite modern writers could have been said to have lived similar lives to saints.
What I have come to appreciate about that religion is related to St. Francis and the Franciscans, which is being in nature and relating to it. That is, without language or self, which seems heavy on the woo, but it can make stark the smallness and absurdities of our material world and the suffering we impose on each other as the effect of our opinions and perceptions filtered through ideas of self. It's meaningful that rivers and trees in nature don't care. The Japanese "forest bathing," is related, where I think people really benefit from being free from their own judgments of themselves and the percieved judgments of others.
Where it relates to Francis is that animals absolutely notice and behave differently around people who have let go of their self-ness(?) and wants, since "wanting" in nature necessarily means predation to every other being. Life consumes life, and something expressing want of any kind is going to eat something so you don't want to be around it. I suspect that hunger is something repellant to everything in nature, as you don't want to be around anything that is expressing it. If you've ever heard someone described as "a bit thirsty," it means to avoid them. There's some deep psychosexual stuff going on with that bit of slang, imo, but the story of Francis was how he had given up that need.
People certainly let go of that want and hunger of spirit without the Christian path, just ask those Buddhist monks how they live with tigers. But if someone wanted to emmulate Jesus's example from those stories in scripture, I think the stories of Francis communing with animals are an example of someone who was able to understand that facet of Jesus' presence, and to present himself to animals without the want and hunger that defines the self in many religions, and like the lions laying down in front of the martyrs thrown to them, the acceptance by other animal beings was evidence of faith curing that spiritual hunger. The message in the canonization of Francis is, we are not merely our hungers and thirsts, we are more, and we can exercise it by emmulating Christ's example as a map - or just find a way to figure it out for yourself through some other path.
If you are in fact a genius, consider that your odds of being cannonized as one are pretty low, just do good work and make things people want that relieve their suffering, and maybe just keep your head down for a bit, as one gets the impression the inquisitors these days are restless.
That doesn't seem the right characterization.
Francis of Assisi went to get authorization from the Pope early and defined himself and his movement as being part of "mother church".
Martin Luther was excommunicated while alive, as was Cauvin, or recently archbishop Milingo.
Canonization is kinda independent from being declared heretic.
Excommunication is a finding that someone is not eligible for communion.
Now, being a "reformer" runs you the risk of falling afoul of the authorities, and a finding of heresy could result from that.
I was discussing this on a sociology discord until some PhD asserted that every being seeks domination unless it's dominated...
I found the view a little narrow and I much prefer the one you described, even though we are to be predatory at points in our live.. (biochemistry dictatest that) we can and often prefer to be in a selfless state, a sharing, a harmonizing one.
Anyhow, St. Francis always struck me as one of the very nicest stories in Christianity. Whenever my Mom was kind to animals, someone always compared her to him.
In this universe, he's the petty-minded little sadist who goes around maiming small animals.
What I’m really curious about, and mean this with no malice, I’m really intrigued why you thought to bring this up and phrase it in this way.
Not judging, I’m just curious.
I was impressed to hear that he even started addressing flames of fire as "brother flames" (iirc).
https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf13.htm