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Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by foota on Friday July 28, 2023 @11:05PM (#36916450)
Construction is expensive, and purchasing right of way in populated areas is ridiculously expensive. Short tracks are more expensive because you want to do inconvenient things in order to keep them short (like tunneling and building bridges) instead of taking the path of least resistance. You need all of these things for a good high speel rail, but you need a lot of it to even improve the existing rail. There's some compromises you could make to improve the existing system, but there's not much desire for it I think since it'd still largely be a many billion dollar long term project. I think the opinion is that it's not worth spending all that unless it's transformative (i.e., the marginal benefit of a 2 hour vs 3 and a half hour train ride is small compared to the benefit of a 3 and a half hr ride to a 1 hour ride since at that point you have realistic commutes and such).
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by ghaff on Saturday July 29, 2023 @12:21AM (#36916874)
1 hr Seattle to Portland probably doesn’t even really make it commuting distance because very few people are going to live and work close enough to the endpoints to keep things to 90 minutes total. Boston to NYC is 4 hours or so and that’s useful for a lot of purposes although that’s admittedly in part because driving and parking in Manhattan is so awful. (I could drive from my house to Manhattan faster but I hardly ever do.)
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by georgeoliver on Saturday July 29, 2023 @12:46AM (#36917038)
Why is 90 minutes the magic number? For example lots of people commute from New Haven to New York City, where the train ride alone is 90+ minutes.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by ghaff on Saturday July 29, 2023 @12:57AM (#36917098)
Manhattan is sort of a special case and I can tell you from personal experience that 90 minutes is pretty bad even if a lot of it is spent on a train. I commuted into Boston a few days a week when it was about 90 minutes door to door and IMO it was not sustainable. If I go into my downtown office now which I do rarely it’s 2 hours.

That some people are forced into super-commutes now and then doesn’t make it a really sustainable most days situation. So you’re up by 6am or earlier and you’re not getting home until 8pm or later depending on your work hours.

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by lotsofpulp on Saturday July 29, 2023 @03:37AM (#36917836)
And it is an awful existence. People do it for the chance to earn more money, but I would not wish that quality of life on my enemies.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by rob74 on Saturday July 29, 2023 @01:00AM (#36917107)
I don't think commuting should be the main focus - if you want HSR to make sense ecologically, it should replace existing car and airplane trips, not enable people to make longer commutes.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by ghaff on Saturday July 29, 2023 @01:13AM (#36917162)
I’m not from the area but does anyone actually fly from SEA to PDX assuming they have a car? It’s not like SeaTac is even that close to Seattle. And depending on where you live and destination plans it’s hard for me to imagine trading a less than 3 hour drive for a train trip.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by LeanderK on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:43AM (#36920791)
I can't relate to this at all. I would trade driving for a train trip if the total duration is somewhat comparable (or even a little bit longer), especially if I would have to make the trip regularly.

I don't think flying is convenient but taking a HSR-train is.

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by ghaff on Saturday July 29, 2023 @11:06AM (#36920979)
It depends on a lot of factors. Where do you live relative to the train station? How annoying is the drive? Do you want/need a car on the other end? New York checks two of those boxes for me. (Getting to the train is out of the way.) But a lot of places that could be train trips I’d want a car once I got there.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by laurex on Saturday July 29, 2023 @03:22PM (#36923568)
From the number of flights offered, I think it’s much more common than you might think. My guess is that part of the reason has to to with Seattle’s very very bad traffic. I once spent 4 hours traveling less than 15 miles on a drive heading south from the city center, and I don’t think that’s even super anomalous.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by psunavy03 on Saturday July 29, 2023 @01:57AM (#36917357)
One of these days people are going to understand that "what makes most ecological sense" is allowing people to live their normal lives as they're accustomed to live them, without beating them over the head and telling them they're bad people.

The average American lifestyle (cars included) is what it is . . . so decarbonize that and stop expecting everyone to live like Brooklynites or Europeans.

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @03:28AM (#36917794)
In a WFH or occasional-office-visit basis, that's more tractable as the trip wouldn't be made on a daily basis.

Though another option is to both densify development near stations and to create a well-functioning feeder transit system to service areas further out. If those can operate at, say, 35 mph / 55 kph average speed, and assuming a 5 minute walkable commute to the work endpoint (jobs are easier to cluster near stations than housing), and with well-timed transfers, then the feed-in distance could be up to about 15 miles / 23 km from the actual HSR station.

Note that average speed is usually about half of top speed, so these would be relatively high-speed commuter-rail systems. Note that the typical average speed of an urban bus, say, is about 5-15 mph (8-24 kph).

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @03:21AM (#36917756)
Adding to this, there's a pretty interesting paradox of transportation infrastructure as relates to land values, and a characteristic I've noticed of many high-speed rail systems.

The creation of transportation infrastructure can convert land from low-value (as reflected by market prices) to high, and this has very often occurred. The US Transcontinental Railroad, completed in 1869, was seen by many as a boondoggle, and indeed traveled through all but completely unpopulated (by European settlers) lands. But development quickly followed.

One settlement bypassed by the railroad was Denver, Colorado. That city raised funds to create a spur line to the Transcontinental Railroad in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and in the decade following that line's completion, Denver's population exploded tenfold, from 5,000 to over 50,000 inhabitants.

Many commuter streetcar and heavy rail lines were created as, or in partnership with, real estate developments, and profits from land speculation were often a very substantial portion of overall profits from such operations.

The flip side is that once land values have increased, establishing new rights of way becomes extraordinarily expensive. Which means that backfilling high-speed rail into an extant prosperous region is insanely expensive, not only in direct land acquisition costs but in the costs of passing legislation and litigating various objections to such projects.

Of the major high-speed rail projects created since 1950, at least three, Japan's Shinkansen, France's TGV, and China's CRH, all seem to me to have benefitted either from being developed in a post-war period of depressed property values (Japan & France) or emerged as a greenfield development through regions in which property values had not yet appreciated ... and in which private property ownership isn't a well-developed institution in the first place (China).

The very slowly-progressing process of high speed rail in California is in many ways due to both the high land valuations of that state and a political environment in which legal objections to such projects are easy to mount. The easiest places to proceed with the project are in the relatively depopulated and low-land-value Central Valley. Geography also plays a role in constraining potential routes, most especially within the San Francisco Bay Area (and especially especially along the San Francisco Peninsula, some of the highest-valued land in the world), and in crossing the Tehachapi mountains at the southern end of the Central Valley, through which there are very few viable routes. These create choke points by which interests opposed to, or simply looking to benefit disproportionately from, the project can focus obstruction efforts, and they have.

In darker moments, I reflect that it might be opportune to wait for a major San Andreas Fault movement to press forward with rail plans, whilst opposition is both defunded and occupied with other concerns.

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by euroderf on Saturday July 29, 2023 @03:37AM (#36917831)
I have read elsewhere that there are ways for rail development to capture some of the increase in land value, in order to offset the cost of the development. I do not have any pointers though.
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by p_l on Saturday July 29, 2023 @04:30AM (#36918156)
A common example is railroads in Japan, which own the land around the station and either run or profitably lease buildings and services on them, with stations in densely populated areas doubling as shopping centers, hotels etc
Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @06:28AM (#36918745)
In the US, railroads were granted sections of land (1 square mile) alongside tracks.

I believe this was every other section, for each mile of track laid. One site I'm finding says that this extended 20 miles to either side of the track:

Approximately 16 percent of Nebraska’s total land mass was given to various railroad companies, either by the federal government or by the state. Along the lines of the state’s two major railroads, the Union Pacific and the Burlington, every other square mile of land (called a "section") went to the railroads. This checkerboard of land extended back twenty miles on both sides of the track. So, the railroads owned a total of twenty sections of land for each mile of road constructed.

<https://www.nebraskastudies.org/en/1850-1874/railroads-settl...>

There are some holdings that are still retained (or were until relatively recently). The UCSF extension along the San Francisco bayfront is on land that had belonged to the Santa Fe Railroad, for example.

How US High Speed Rail projects are utilising this approach I don't know. Much of the valuable land is, of course, presently owned.

I believe this was initially specified under the 1862 Pacific Railroad Act, and may have been later amended:

Section 3 [of the Act] granted an additional 10 square miles (26 km²) of public land for every mile of grade except where railroads ran through cities or crossed rivers. The method of apportioning these additional land grants was specified in the Act as being in the form of "five alternate sections per mile on each side of said railroad, on the line thereof, and within the limits of ten miles on each side" which thus provided the companies with a total of 6,400 acres (2,600 ha) for each mile of their railroad.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Railroad_Acts>

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by jcranmer on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:40AM (#36920766)
The standard land grant pattern for railroads was a checkerboard pattern, which makes it hard to depict accurately on a map. The source I have doesn't give an exact number of Nebraska that was actually granted in land grant to railroads, but 16% is right in the ballpark of what I'd estimate from interpolation from other states.

However, it's also worth noting that land grants were only doled out in US history in an extremely limited time period--from the 1850s to the 1870s. The majority of railroads were not in fact built with land grants.

Re:Plans Develop for High-Speed Rail in the PNW by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @11:46AM (#36921372)
Thanks.

I was aware of the "checkerboard" land-grant allocation, but not how deep (perpendicular distance from RoW) it went.

I also wasn't aware of how brief the land-grant subsidy era was. Though it would be interesting to see a track-mileage development timeline or animation showing how trackage developed over time.

My general understanding is that track mileage exploded quite quickly, often with competing railroads establishing duplicate connections especially on highly-attractive routes, with the winner then absorbing (or simply competing to death) the loser(s). There is also a distinction between major (national or regional) Class I railroads, and short-line (usually Class III) railroads, where a short-line often served only a single line or small set of lines within a small region.

Overall, US railroad trackage shrank for much of the 20th century as early, redundant, competitive trackage was abandoned. I'm not sure what recent trends have been.