> In total, the TSA raised concerns about almost 49,000 Clear customers who were enrolled despite facial-recognition software flagging them as non-matches, and concluded its broader methods were inherently inferior to how the government checks travelers’ IDs, the people said. Enrollment photos seen by Bloomberg in some cases didn’t show a face at all and instead, for example, a shoulder and ceiling.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by landemva on Friday July 28, 2023 @04:18PM
(#36912701)
Nah, as the people still have to go through screening no different than elderly or children (leave on shoes). Ramp workers go through separate doors with keypads- no screening. Even TSA doesn't screen themselves, as if a TSA government employee could not be bribed or coerced to take items around screening.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by landemva on Friday July 28, 2023 @07:29PM
(#36914803)
ID is not required to be shown to TSA. I misplaced my ID a couple times and went through.
The ID check was really to stop frequent flier award travel resale back when tickets were paper. It's still possible to use paper boarding pass today, though to my knowledge few people try to fly on tickets with someone else's name. It is still possible because showing ID, like the full body scan machines, is voluntary.
TSA misleads the public about what is mandatory. Freedom to travel is a right in USA. If you closely observe the TSA process, they check the ID with the name on boarding pass. This is revenue management service for the airlines.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by yellowapple on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:16PM
(#36937016)
> Freedom to travel is a right in USA.
That doesn't imply (let alone exply) a right to board a plane. This is the same logic used by self-proclaimed "sovereign citizens" to get out of everything from speeding tickets to California's agricultural checkpoints, and said logic falls apart for the exact same reason: you can exercise your freedom to travel on foot.
> If you closely observe the TSA process, they check the ID with the name on boarding pass.
Well yeah, obviously. The whole point of the checkpoint is to establish "you are who you say you are" and "you're authorized to be here", not just one or the other.
> they claim full body imaging can be required yet they do not have that authority in practice. They can't even detain people.
They clearly do and can, as plenty of people have learned the hard way. That, or you can walk (or drive, or bus, or train, or boat, or whatever) to your destination.
Like, I'm with you that TSA is security theater and largely pointless, but you don't have to buy into sovereign-citizen-style misinterpretations of the law in order to arrive at that conclusion.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by morpheuskafka on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:39PM
(#36937190)
> If you closely observe the TSA process, they check the ID with the name on boarding pass. This is revenue management service for the airlines.
The rationale for checking name match is there there is a separate part of the TSA process which identifies high-risk and prohibited individuals, and that works on name matching.
That has already been completed based on the name on the boarding pass, so using another persons boarding pass/false name would bypass those checks.
You could still bypass the airline's rules by entering with a ticket for another flight in your name (refundable or cheap) and using someone else's ticket at the gate. Couldn't check a bag, however. (although I inadvertently bypassed the checked bag-ID match at DCA last time)
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by Hermitian909 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:55PM
(#36936865)
It shouldn't because the TSA does not serve a real purpose other than to be a jobs program.
There has been a great deal of evidence over the years that the safety measures of the TSA are easily bypassed (google "TSA security theater" for a wealth of sources) and there's no evidence of increased safety since the department was created.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by cuuupid on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:31PM
(#36937114)
I’d be the first to say I’m not a fan of the TSA but this is a bit of an extreme take.
Yes, you can bypass the measures, but there’s a fallacy in assuming they don’t still stop bad actors.
iirc the TSA failure rate is an abysmal 70%, but I’d wager that for determined, organized individuals a lock has the same failure rate. You can easily break past a lock but does that mean we should be leaving our doors, cars etc unlocked?
The solution is probably to replace them or improve them but not get rid of them altogether. Or perhaps the solution is to increase the purview of DHS here, which is generally more skilled and has comparatively stellar performance stopping domestic threats.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by tyingq on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:40PM
(#36937195)
Everything I've read concurs with an extreme view. 70% failure is a good day for them. They accomplish very close to nothing. They catch a lot of dumb people that mistakenly packed firearms, and not much else.
"TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints...Two years later, a Red Team test at Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport achieved the same 95 percent failure rate to detect explosives, weapons, and illegal drugs. Repeat national tests in 2017 also went badly, "in the ballpark" of an 80 percent failure rate."[1]
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:22PM
(#36937061)
This is such a common refrain ("it's security theater"), but I never hear any alternatives that I think would be slightly viable.
To be clear, not really making an argument on TSA vs private security screeners that were in use before 9/11. But I am making the argument that those who like to shout "security theater" - what do you think is a better alternative? Do you honestly think it would ever work to just let flyers board planes with no screening of them or their luggage? When the inevitable jet loads of people are taken down by a terrorist bomb, the populous at large would be scrambling for more security, basically like they were after 9/11.
Basically I'd like to know what your alternative proposal is.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by kortilla on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:37PM
(#36937174)
How many terrorist “bombs” do you think it stops? If they had easy access to bombs why would they waste it on planes when they could just go into hospitals, trains, and buses and cause just as much havoc?
There were very few plane bombings even when bombing was popular (Oklahoma city, wtc, etc). Planes are only interesting to terrorists as a weapon, not a target.
Pre-9/11 the assumption was most nut job with guns on a plane wanted to hijack it as part of some heist, etc. 9/11 changed that assumption, locks went on cockpit doors, a few protocols were tweaked, and that actually solved the problem. The naked scanners on the ground were for theater of “being secure”.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:47PM
(#36937251)
There are loads of examples that terrorists love blowing up planes.
There are plenty of terrorist bombs that screening stopped (search the famous El Al case), or alternatively that terrorists were able to successfully bypass which led to stronger rules in the first place (e.g. the shoe bomber), or which they planned (e.g. the Bojinka Plot).
I can easily buy the argument that a lot of other commenters are making that a lot of the specific rules can be improved, or that there are other targeted approaches that could work better. What I absolutely don't buy, because there are plenty of examples to the contrary, is that screening itself is unnecessary.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @08:15PM
(#36937468)
Based on the timeline here they've mostly stopped. [1] The last one with any meaningful injuries was almost a decade ago, and the one before that a decade earlier. Compare that to the 70s and 80s.
We don't do any screening at FBOs/private terminals so long as the plane has less than some number of passengers. Every flight out of Oakland on JSX has zero screening whatsoever, you just walk on and those are 30-seat Embraers. Larger than some of the stuff going out of the regional gates at the main concourse. It's even in their marketing material under "bye bye hassle." [2]
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:04PM
(#36938074)
> Based on the timeline here they've mostly stopped. [1] The last one with any meaningful injuries was almost a decade ago, and the one before that a decade earlier. Compare that to the 70s and 80s.
So, in other words, airline bombings have gone way down as screening procedures have increased?
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @11:27PM
(#36938516)
Correlation doesn’t imply causation - after all their own data shows the TSA fails to catch 95% of their own attempts to smuggle dangerous things through; and private terminals haven’t seen any incidents at all despite their lack of screening right?
Isn’t it far more likely that the reinforced cockpit doors made it pretty futile to try and hijack anything?
You’re asking for examples that indicate screening isn’t necessary and I provided one - all private flights are exempt and haven’t ever (?) been involved in such incidents. If they just “love” blowing up planes why wouldn’t they try and do so out of the private aviation terminals which have no security?
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by ceejayoz on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:36PM
(#36937156)
> what do you think is a better alternative?
We already made the sensible changes. X-raying bags, armored cockpit doors, and passengers who know to fight hijackers - the Flight 93 folks knew immediately the “be quiet, land, and everyone gets out alive” era was over.
We don’t need the shoe, laptop, and liquid rules that take most of the time.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by Zak on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:31PM
(#36937119)
The pre-9/11 security screening itself was less invasive and faster than it is now. Luggage, bulky clothing, and anything that set off the metal detector still had to go through the X-ray.
A better alternative would be to let people keep their shoes on, stop worrying about liquids, and not scrutinize small objects in luggage that can't be identified, but obviously aren't guns or bombs large enough to crash a plane. Yes, people have tried to bomb aircraft using shoes and liquids, but those plots were not only ineffective but likely ineffectual.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by batshibstein on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:43PM
(#36938253)
IMO one nice (un?)intended consequence of the liquids restriction is limiting liquid spills on the floor of the plane i.e. somebody can't spill a 2-liter bottle of Mountain Dew or IDK, a gallon of laundry detergent on the plane (Sure there's the beverages on the plane or whatever you can buy post-security but they're usually not that large either) -- there's enough mess without having to deal with people porting around whatever amount of liquid they please.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @08:11PM
(#36937446)
> Basically I'd like to know what your alternative proposal is.
We already did it. The only thing we did to materially improve security in air travel since 9/11 is fortifying the cockpit doors. It's super effective.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by Hermitian909 on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:46PM
(#36947796)
My proposal: More or less what we had pre 9/11. We solved the the vulnerability that 9/11 exposed in under a year - the inability to lock down the cabin to protect it from hostiles. Every commercial plane has newer doors installed now.
This means the only really viable attack on aircraft is to blow them up mid-air which:
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:44PM
(#36948516)
Just want to say I very much agree with this, and pretty much most of the other responses here. A lot of the times when I hear people talk about TSA "security theater" I hear them arguing that we really shouldn't have any screening at all, but it seems like the responses here are arguing specifically against:
1. Taking off your shoes
2. The liquids rule
3. Taking out your laptop.
To which I totally agree (and since as a TSA Precheck member I never hit those issues anyway I don't notice them as much).
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by Simulacra on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:37PM
(#36937167)
22 years after 9/11, there has not been a serious aviation terrorist attack in America. I don't think anybody likes TSA, but it's better than nothing. It's too bad the National Guard or the military can't run it
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:37PM
(#36937168)
That paragraph is a bit misleading/unclear in my opinion, and is further explained lower in the article. Basically the Clear enrollment process is this:
1. First, the prospective enrollee needs to be matched to their ID. The normal way to do this is to take the person's picture, and then facial recognition software matches that face with their ID. However, since facial recognition isn't perfect, there is a "manual override" process where a Clear employee manually checks your ID and says "yes, this is you." That's why I don't think the sentence about "Enrollment photos seen by Bloomberg in some cases didn’t show a face at all and instead, for example, a shoulder and ceiling" is really that big a deal, because in those cases the photo was just ignored, and the person's ID was manually verified (which is what TSA agents do anyways).
2. Once your ID has been verified, then the Clear system scans your retina and your fingerprints. For any flights then that you want to board, Clear just does a retina scan to look up your ID.
The problem is that if the original ID verification is wrong (e.g. the applicant had someone else's ID that just happens to look similar to them, think of the 20 year old trying to get into the bar with their older sibling's ID), it basically would allow the person to fly unlimited without their ID ever being checked again. That is, you only need to "sneak in" once.
I think a better solution is to just more periodically revalidate IDs, and pick some percentage for random additional verification.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by nimbius on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:39PM
(#36937188)
Being a trusted traveler with global entry, I loathe clear with a passion. It means 2 metres from the TSA checkpoint I have to let a family of six randos cut the precheck line I was told to stand in and wait while they fumble for their ID and juggle their shoes.
Just roll them to the back of the line and stop acting like the fact that they surrendered s generation of biometric data to a startup entitles them to anything more than equality.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by crmd on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:50PM
(#36937277)
I’m the type of guy who runs a pihole and types in 867-5309 as my shoppers club lookup at the supermarket checkout, but I have never more gladly traded a little privacy for time than when purchasing Clear. I would have given them a stool sample if it meant never having to wait in security theater line at the airport.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by Racing0461 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:53PM
(#36937305)
Clear puts them in front of the general line. if you have ge won't you be in the precheck line? unless they have clear + precheck. but i guess this varies by airport too.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by xracy on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:34PM
(#36938213)
At my local airport, you can schedule a time ahead with TSA. It is 100% free, and they basically provide the same service of "walking you to the front of the TSA line."
Seems like a better option than paying a corporation for "convenience".
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA...
by byteCoder on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:01AM
(#36971840)
Note: I have TSA Precheck and CLEAR.
I'm not sure how someone could get through with the incorrect identity unless their eye scan results in the record of someone with the same name.
The process for CLEAR is:
1. Stand next to the kiosk for recognition. For whatever reasons, the machines always seem to have problems with me, but eventually get a good scan and bring up the correct record.
2. Scan your boarding pass at the kiosk, which (supposedly) validates that you're on a flight at this airport and that your name matches what's on the boarding pass.
3. You're escorted to the TSA agent, the CLEAR agent vouches for you, and you just wave your boarding pass in the air to the TSA agent (no scanning).
Often (including this week), I get flagged to show my identification to the CLEAR agent and to the TSA agent. Ultimately, I could have gone through less hassle with simply the TSA Precheck line.
Many times the TSA Precheck line is actually faster. However, when that line is backed up (usually at certain airports like DCA), having CLEAR is a winner. YMMV
> In total, the TSA raised concerns about almost 49,000 Clear customers who were enrolled despite facial-recognition software flagging them as non-matches, and concluded its broader methods were inherently inferior to how the government checks travelers’ IDs, the people said. Enrollment photos seen by Bloomberg in some cases didn’t show a face at all and instead, for example, a shoulder and ceiling.
This seems like it ought to be a huge story.
The ID check was really to stop frequent flier award travel resale back when tickets were paper. It's still possible to use paper boarding pass today, though to my knowledge few people try to fly on tickets with someone else's name. It is still possible because showing ID, like the full body scan machines, is voluntary.
TSA misleads the public about what is mandatory. Freedom to travel is a right in USA. If you closely observe the TSA process, they check the ID with the name on boarding pass. This is revenue management service for the airlines.
That doesn't imply (let alone exply) a right to board a plane. This is the same logic used by self-proclaimed "sovereign citizens" to get out of everything from speeding tickets to California's agricultural checkpoints, and said logic falls apart for the exact same reason: you can exercise your freedom to travel on foot.
> If you closely observe the TSA process, they check the ID with the name on boarding pass.
Well yeah, obviously. The whole point of the checkpoint is to establish "you are who you say you are" and "you're authorized to be here", not just one or the other.
> they claim full body imaging can be required yet they do not have that authority in practice. They can't even detain people.
They clearly do and can, as plenty of people have learned the hard way. That, or you can walk (or drive, or bus, or train, or boat, or whatever) to your destination.
Like, I'm with you that TSA is security theater and largely pointless, but you don't have to buy into sovereign-citizen-style misinterpretations of the law in order to arrive at that conclusion.
The rationale for checking name match is there there is a separate part of the TSA process which identifies high-risk and prohibited individuals, and that works on name matching.
That has already been completed based on the name on the boarding pass, so using another persons boarding pass/false name would bypass those checks.
You could still bypass the airline's rules by entering with a ticket for another flight in your name (refundable or cheap) and using someone else's ticket at the gate. Couldn't check a bag, however. (although I inadvertently bypassed the checked bag-ID match at DCA last time)
There has been a great deal of evidence over the years that the safety measures of the TSA are easily bypassed (google "TSA security theater" for a wealth of sources) and there's no evidence of increased safety since the department was created.
Yes, you can bypass the measures, but there’s a fallacy in assuming they don’t still stop bad actors.
iirc the TSA failure rate is an abysmal 70%, but I’d wager that for determined, organized individuals a lock has the same failure rate. You can easily break past a lock but does that mean we should be leaving our doors, cars etc unlocked?
The solution is probably to replace them or improve them but not get rid of them altogether. Or perhaps the solution is to increase the purview of DHS here, which is generally more skilled and has comparatively stellar performance stopping domestic threats.
"TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints...Two years later, a Red Team test at Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport achieved the same 95 percent failure rate to detect explosives, weapons, and illegal drugs. Repeat national tests in 2017 also went badly, "in the ballpark" of an 80 percent failure rate."[1]
[1] https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill...
To be clear, not really making an argument on TSA vs private security screeners that were in use before 9/11. But I am making the argument that those who like to shout "security theater" - what do you think is a better alternative? Do you honestly think it would ever work to just let flyers board planes with no screening of them or their luggage? When the inevitable jet loads of people are taken down by a terrorist bomb, the populous at large would be scrambling for more security, basically like they were after 9/11.
Basically I'd like to know what your alternative proposal is.
There were very few plane bombings even when bombing was popular (Oklahoma city, wtc, etc). Planes are only interesting to terrorists as a weapon, not a target.
Pre-9/11 the assumption was most nut job with guns on a plane wanted to hijack it as part of some heist, etc. 9/11 changed that assumption, locks went on cockpit doors, a few protocols were tweaked, and that actually solved the problem. The naked scanners on the ground were for theater of “being secure”.
There are plenty of terrorist bombs that screening stopped (search the famous El Al case), or alternatively that terrorists were able to successfully bypass which led to stronger rules in the first place (e.g. the shoe bomber), or which they planned (e.g. the Bojinka Plot).
I can easily buy the argument that a lot of other commenters are making that a lot of the specific rules can be improved, or that there are other targeted approaches that could work better. What I absolutely don't buy, because there are plenty of examples to the contrary, is that screening itself is unnecessary.
We don't do any screening at FBOs/private terminals so long as the plane has less than some number of passengers. Every flight out of Oakland on JSX has zero screening whatsoever, you just walk on and those are 30-seat Embraers. Larger than some of the stuff going out of the regional gates at the main concourse. It's even in their marketing material under "bye bye hassle." [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a...
[2] https://www.jsx.com/flying-with-us
So, in other words, airline bombings have gone way down as screening procedures have increased?
Isn’t it far more likely that the reinforced cockpit doors made it pretty futile to try and hijack anything?
You’re asking for examples that indicate screening isn’t necessary and I provided one - all private flights are exempt and haven’t ever (?) been involved in such incidents. If they just “love” blowing up planes why wouldn’t they try and do so out of the private aviation terminals which have no security?
We already made the sensible changes. X-raying bags, armored cockpit doors, and passengers who know to fight hijackers - the Flight 93 folks knew immediately the “be quiet, land, and everyone gets out alive” era was over.
We don’t need the shoe, laptop, and liquid rules that take most of the time.
A better alternative would be to let people keep their shoes on, stop worrying about liquids, and not scrutinize small objects in luggage that can't be identified, but obviously aren't guns or bombs large enough to crash a plane. Yes, people have tried to bomb aircraft using shoes and liquids, but those plots were not only ineffective but likely ineffectual.
One, Pre-Check rules for everyone. Shoes and jacket on, metal detector only. ID check or biometrics. Random subset of bags get X-rayed.
Arming cockpit doors went 90% of the way to preventing another 9/11.
We already did it. The only thing we did to materially improve security in air travel since 9/11 is fortifying the cockpit doors. It's super effective.
This means the only really viable attack on aircraft is to blow them up mid-air which:
1. Is much less impactful
2. Still achievable by a determined actor today
1. Taking off your shoes
2. The liquids rule
3. Taking out your laptop.
To which I totally agree (and since as a TSA Precheck member I never hit those issues anyway I don't notice them as much).
1. First, the prospective enrollee needs to be matched to their ID. The normal way to do this is to take the person's picture, and then facial recognition software matches that face with their ID. However, since facial recognition isn't perfect, there is a "manual override" process where a Clear employee manually checks your ID and says "yes, this is you." That's why I don't think the sentence about "Enrollment photos seen by Bloomberg in some cases didn’t show a face at all and instead, for example, a shoulder and ceiling" is really that big a deal, because in those cases the photo was just ignored, and the person's ID was manually verified (which is what TSA agents do anyways).
2. Once your ID has been verified, then the Clear system scans your retina and your fingerprints. For any flights then that you want to board, Clear just does a retina scan to look up your ID.
The problem is that if the original ID verification is wrong (e.g. the applicant had someone else's ID that just happens to look similar to them, think of the 20 year old trying to get into the bar with their older sibling's ID), it basically would allow the person to fly unlimited without their ID ever being checked again. That is, you only need to "sneak in" once.
I think a better solution is to just more periodically revalidate IDs, and pick some percentage for random additional verification.
It's basically a tolled express lane for humans.
Just roll them to the back of the line and stop acting like the fact that they surrendered s generation of biometric data to a startup entitles them to anything more than equality.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/YOU/clear-secure/m...
Seems like a better option than paying a corporation for "convenience".
I'm not sure how someone could get through with the incorrect identity unless their eye scan results in the record of someone with the same name.
The process for CLEAR is:
1. Stand next to the kiosk for recognition. For whatever reasons, the machines always seem to have problems with me, but eventually get a good scan and bring up the correct record.
2. Scan your boarding pass at the kiosk, which (supposedly) validates that you're on a flight at this airport and that your name matches what's on the boarding pass.
3. You're escorted to the TSA agent, the CLEAR agent vouches for you, and you just wave your boarding pass in the air to the TSA agent (no scanning).
Often (including this week), I get flagged to show my identification to the CLEAR agent and to the TSA agent. Ultimately, I could have gone through less hassle with simply the TSA Precheck line.
Many times the TSA Precheck line is actually faster. However, when that line is backed up (usually at certain airports like DCA), having CLEAR is a winner. YMMV