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Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by Hermitian909 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:55PM (#36936865)
It shouldn't because the TSA does not serve a real purpose other than to be a jobs program.

There has been a great deal of evidence over the years that the safety measures of the TSA are easily bypassed (google "TSA security theater" for a wealth of sources) and there's no evidence of increased safety since the department was created.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by cuuupid on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:31PM (#36937114)
I’d be the first to say I’m not a fan of the TSA but this is a bit of an extreme take.

Yes, you can bypass the measures, but there’s a fallacy in assuming they don’t still stop bad actors.

iirc the TSA failure rate is an abysmal 70%, but I’d wager that for determined, organized individuals a lock has the same failure rate. You can easily break past a lock but does that mean we should be leaving our doors, cars etc unlocked?

The solution is probably to replace them or improve them but not get rid of them altogether. Or perhaps the solution is to increase the purview of DHS here, which is generally more skilled and has comparatively stellar performance stopping domestic threats.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by tyingq on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:40PM (#36937195)
Everything I've read concurs with an extreme view. 70% failure is a good day for them. They accomplish very close to nothing. They catch a lot of dumb people that mistakenly packed firearms, and not much else.

"TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints...Two years later, a Red Team test at Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport achieved the same 95 percent failure rate to detect explosives, weapons, and illegal drugs. Repeat national tests in 2017 also went badly, "in the ballpark" of an 80 percent failure rate."[1]

[1] https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill...

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by nunez on Sunday July 30, 2023 @08:27PM (#36937549)
Is it possible that the TSA is faking their stats to make them look weaker than they actually are?
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:22PM (#36937061)
This is such a common refrain ("it's security theater"), but I never hear any alternatives that I think would be slightly viable.

To be clear, not really making an argument on TSA vs private security screeners that were in use before 9/11. But I am making the argument that those who like to shout "security theater" - what do you think is a better alternative? Do you honestly think it would ever work to just let flyers board planes with no screening of them or their luggage? When the inevitable jet loads of people are taken down by a terrorist bomb, the populous at large would be scrambling for more security, basically like they were after 9/11.

Basically I'd like to know what your alternative proposal is.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by kortilla on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:37PM (#36937174)
How many terrorist “bombs” do you think it stops? If they had easy access to bombs why would they waste it on planes when they could just go into hospitals, trains, and buses and cause just as much havoc?

There were very few plane bombings even when bombing was popular (Oklahoma city, wtc, etc). Planes are only interesting to terrorists as a weapon, not a target.

Pre-9/11 the assumption was most nut job with guns on a plane wanted to hijack it as part of some heist, etc. 9/11 changed that assumption, locks went on cockpit doors, a few protocols were tweaked, and that actually solved the problem. The naked scanners on the ground were for theater of “being secure”.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:47PM (#36937251)
There are loads of examples that terrorists love blowing up planes.

There are plenty of terrorist bombs that screening stopped (search the famous El Al case), or alternatively that terrorists were able to successfully bypass which led to stronger rules in the first place (e.g. the shoe bomber), or which they planned (e.g. the Bojinka Plot).

I can easily buy the argument that a lot of other commenters are making that a lot of the specific rules can be improved, or that there are other targeted approaches that could work better. What I absolutely don't buy, because there are plenty of examples to the contrary, is that screening itself is unnecessary.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @08:15PM (#36937468)
Based on the timeline here they've mostly stopped. [1] The last one with any meaningful injuries was almost a decade ago, and the one before that a decade earlier. Compare that to the 70s and 80s.

We don't do any screening at FBOs/private terminals so long as the plane has less than some number of passengers. Every flight out of Oakland on JSX has zero screening whatsoever, you just walk on and those are 30-seat Embraers. Larger than some of the stuff going out of the regional gates at the main concourse. It's even in their marketing material under "bye bye hassle." [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a...

[2] https://www.jsx.com/flying-with-us

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:04PM (#36938074)
> Based on the timeline here they've mostly stopped. [1] The last one with any meaningful injuries was almost a decade ago, and the one before that a decade earlier. Compare that to the 70s and 80s.

So, in other words, airline bombings have gone way down as screening procedures have increased?

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @11:27PM (#36938516)
Correlation doesn’t imply causation - after all their own data shows the TSA fails to catch 95% of their own attempts to smuggle dangerous things through; and private terminals haven’t seen any incidents at all despite their lack of screening right?

Isn’t it far more likely that the reinforced cockpit doors made it pretty futile to try and hijack anything?

You’re asking for examples that indicate screening isn’t necessary and I provided one - all private flights are exempt and haven’t ever (?) been involved in such incidents. If they just “love” blowing up planes why wouldn’t they try and do so out of the private aviation terminals which have no security?

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by ceejayoz on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:36PM (#36937156)
> what do you think is a better alternative?

We already made the sensible changes. X-raying bags, armored cockpit doors, and passengers who know to fight hijackers - the Flight 93 folks knew immediately the “be quiet, land, and everyone gets out alive” era was over.

We don’t need the shoe, laptop, and liquid rules that take most of the time.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by Zak on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:31PM (#36937119)
The pre-9/11 security screening itself was less invasive and faster than it is now. Luggage, bulky clothing, and anything that set off the metal detector still had to go through the X-ray.

A better alternative would be to let people keep their shoes on, stop worrying about liquids, and not scrutinize small objects in luggage that can't be identified, but obviously aren't guns or bombs large enough to crash a plane. Yes, people have tried to bomb aircraft using shoes and liquids, but those plots were not only ineffective but likely ineffectual.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:50PM (#36937271)
FWIW I agree with you, but that's why I just use TSA Precheck - I keep my shoes on, don't take out my laptop, and don't take out my liquids.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by batshibstein on Sunday July 30, 2023 @10:43PM (#36938253)
IMO one nice (un?)intended consequence of the liquids restriction is limiting liquid spills on the floor of the plane i.e. somebody can't spill a 2-liter bottle of Mountain Dew or IDK, a gallon of laundry detergent on the plane (Sure there's the beverages on the plane or whatever you can buy post-security but they're usually not that large either) -- there's enough mess without having to deal with people porting around whatever amount of liquid they please.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:32PM (#36937122)
> Do you honestly think it would ever work to just let flyers board planes with no screening of them or their luggage?

One, Pre-Check rules for everyone. Shoes and jacket on, metal detector only. ID check or biometrics. Random subset of bags get X-rayed.

Arming cockpit doors went 90% of the way to preventing another 9/11.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by saagarjha on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:24PM (#36937076)
Well, the thing is that they’re currently not being taken down by terrorism. So maybe we don’t actually need to do all that much?
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by arcticbull on Sunday July 30, 2023 @08:11PM (#36937446)
> Basically I'd like to know what your alternative proposal is.

We already did it. The only thing we did to materially improve security in air travel since 9/11 is fortifying the cockpit doors. It's super effective.

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by Hermitian909 on Monday July 31, 2023 @03:46PM (#36947796)
My proposal: More or less what we had pre 9/11. We solved the the vulnerability that 9/11 exposed in under a year - the inability to lock down the cabin to protect it from hostiles. Every commercial plane has newer doors installed now.

This means the only really viable attack on aircraft is to blow them up mid-air which:

1. Is much less impactful

2. Still achievable by a determined actor today

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday July 31, 2023 @04:44PM (#36948516)
Just want to say I very much agree with this, and pretty much most of the other responses here. A lot of the times when I hear people talk about TSA "security theater" I hear them arguing that we really shouldn't have any screening at all, but it seems like the responses here are arguing specifically against:

1. Taking off your shoes

2. The liquids rule

3. Taking out your laptop.

To which I totally agree (and since as a TSA Precheck member I never hit those issues anyway I don't notice them as much).

Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by Simulacra on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:37PM (#36937167)
22 years after 9/11, there has not been a serious aviation terrorist attack in America. I don't think anybody likes TSA, but it's better than nothing. It's too bad the National Guard or the military can't run it
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by kortilla on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:39PM (#36937184)
That’s specious reasoning. The TSA is preventing terrorist attacks on airplanes just as much as they are preventing lion attacks in airports.
Re:Clear Led a Flyer Carrying Ammo Under a False Name to TSA... by ydj on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:49PM (#36937265)
Has there been one in the 22 years preceding 9/11?