So much this - nearly every job I’ve gotten in tech has been due to knowing someone working there, or knowing someone who knows someone.

I have around 13 years in the business but I suck at socializing and I'm thankful this hasn't been the case for me, I would be broke if I depended on acquaintances to find work, instead I just have landed positions by applying to offers found at LinkedIn and elsewhere.

You don’t need to socialize - a recruiter reached out to me and I let him know that I wasn’t in the market, but the guy who had sat next to me for 3 years (open plan offices FTW!) at my last job would be perfect. We weren’t terribly friendly but certainly got on professionally.

Interesting. Literally every job I’ve gotten was either through a recruiter or cold outreach.

How far along are you in you’re career? The first 15 years I was recruiter or responding to ad, but after 20 mostly network.

> after 20 mostly network.

I suspect the importance of networking and the likelihood of ageism are often related.

It might also be related to industry size. I've done games and robotics - both relatively small industries compared to "web".

13 years so maybe

And I'm 2 cold outreach, 1 recruiter, 1 from network.

Everyone's experience is different?

The problem being that when you muck up the interview, you get outed as a quack to someone you know.

flopping interview != quack

Everyone knows that interviews have high false negative rates (depending on your hiring criteria). You have to mentally guard yourself that interviews are not a complete judgement of you; they are at best a small pinhole view into your capabilities.

Early in my career I was an ace at learning just enough to talk the talk in an interview (I was playing the risky game that I'd have the chops to learn the skills when I needed them, which thankfully I always did)

I had a boss who was incredibly good at this strategy. She would take the time between the interview and job start to learn what she needed to know.

> The problem being that when you muck up the interview, you get outed as a quack to someone you know.

The downvotes you got were undeserved. For most job markets: If an ideal candidate is interview-disabled, their odds of being hired are dismal.

For me personally - if I refer someone and they mess up the interview, I wouldn't take it as them being a "quack". If I referred someone it's likely I thought they could do the job fine, it's just that they didn't do a great job convincing my coworkers - and that's okay.

I would it very strange to get happy birthday messages from former colleagues. Do people really do this?

Yes, but in my limited experience it's been former managers who are looking to see if they can re-hire you (at either your previous job or wherever they moved onto themselves).

I think that’s just selection bias. Managers became mangers because they’re the type of person that keeps in contact with their prior coworkers and associates.

I'm not really a birthday person in general, so no, not that specific thing, but I definitely have a set of like five to ten past coworkers who I really respected and enjoyed working with, some as peers and some as managers and mentors, and maybe about once a year I'll think "I wonder how XYZ is doing" and reach to them.

I would be totally weird out if some of my past co-workers suddenly reaches out to me with bullshit smalltalk to ask for a job.

Or random people from my past sending me happy birthday ever year.

I am probably not social enough to understand that, but that sounds like a lot of work just to stand out as kinda weird.

Yes you are not social enough to understand this, I regularly get mails or messages from past colleagues who I've never talked to in years suddenly ask me that they are looking for a job and if I know an open position. I absolutely understand their quandary and go out of my way to help them out, cuz we're humans.

Well ok that's one thing. But op was suggesting to cold reach sales people, vendors and anything you had contact with plus basically creating a list of 'humans you might have use for in future' and their birthdays for your personal benefit.

> But op was suggesting to cold reach sales people, vendors and anything you had contact with

No, it's not "cold", the point is that you had contact with them, they know you. It is totally normal to say, "hey not sure you remember me but we worked together on XYZ project in 2017, and I noticed you're at a company now that is interesting to me, can we grab a coffee to catch up?"

> plus basically creating a list of 'humans you might have use for in future' and their birthdays for your personal benefit.

No, keeping track of people you enjoyed working with and reaching out to them periodically is not "keeping a list of humans you might have use for in the future", it is having a network of professional connections that you haven't lost touch with.

I think something you might be missing here is that this is not a unidirectional selfish benefit. You know what I love? When people I enjoyed working with reach out to me. I'm glad they kept track of me and I'm glad they thought to reach out, and I'm glad to both catch up personally and see if I can be helpful to them professionally.

This is what makes the world go 'round, and it's not weird distasteful or nefarious, it's a very good system.

I have to concur with this opinion with a comment because upvotes are not visible on HN: yes it’s absolutely alright to keep in touch with people (even at the cost of it looking like pretence at times) and then ask for help ‘out of the blue’. I have absolutely helped out when I’ve gotten such reach-outs and will do so again. We live in a society…

This is literally how I got every job I’ve had over the last 30 years. You ought to give it a try. People who know you and you know them are the best way to get good jobs. You can ask frank questions, they can give frank advice, and they will talk you up with the hiring manager. I’m about as antisocial as humans get, but it sure beats beating pavement and cold calling.

Haha, I once had to reach out to two guys I worked with 5 years ago for references, because the role I was applying for required two references from two previous jobs and these two guys were the only ones that were still working in that place. No doubt it was a bit weird for them, but one's gotta do what one's gotta do. They both agreed BTW.

Yeah this is weird. Work is not just a place where you transact time/utility for money. You can also get to know people and form friendships. I still regularly chat with past work colleagues and meet up with them when I travel.

In the last 20 years I’ve interviewed for exactly one job, and that was my first one out of university. Since then it’s always been people I know offering me new positions. People don’t just hire a random person off the street unless it’s some MegaCorp sausage machine or they’ve exhausted all other options.

Look you can follow this disengaged, unsocial approach, but it’s suboptimal.

>I’ve interviewed for exactly one job

I hear this every so often, but do you mean that literally? It's so far outside my reality I can't believe it still happens.

I've never seen anyone get a job at an established company without SOME kind of interview. Even Guido van Rossum (creator of Python) has needed to do some interviews when changing companies.

Even if they are the hiring manager at a new company I've never seen them be able to completely bypass the HR process in that way.

The interviews were meeting the people, having a chat about what kind of work they’re doing, what I’d be responsible for, etc. Nothing technical. More like an informal chat where it was like them trying to convince me to come over, not me trying to convince them why they should hire me.

As for the HR process, yes there’s always HR. It’s usually a few days after the chat and just a formality to tick the boxes and explain leave policies, the medical cover, run background checks, but HR really has never had any influence over the decision.

I personally get these and want to connect and help people if I’ve had any kind of working relationship with them. But maybe I’m weird.

It helps you also because most people aren’t sociopaths and will pay it forward. It’s a way for you to build your own network.

Your career is often only as strong as your network.

You aren't weird.

I agree the small talk is weird, I prefer when people are direct and message me asking if I know of an opening. I usually check on our internal job bank and give them a referral (if they are good!)

IMO it is absolutely not weird to ask connections if they can refer you for a job? The company even pays me bonuses for successful referrals! (Well maybe that's over now, I haven't checked recently)

> I would be totally weird out if some of my past co-workers suddenly reaches out to me with bullshit smalltalk to ask for a job.

What, why? This is what professional connections are all about! Sure it is weird when like a social friend from childhood reaches out with an ulterior motive, but it's not weird when professional connections reach out for professional reasons. You're the weird one on this one :) And you're probably limiting your own career with this hang up.

I love it when past colleagues reach out. Even if I'm not personally hiring or don't think they'd be a good fit for my current company, I probably know of other people and companies to introduce them to.

The job market as a whole and the industry as a whole doesn't give a crap about you. Your ability to extract a decent life out of working in software in the long run depends on the relationships you make. It's rare to actually work on a team that executes well and where you enjoy those people's company. In my 20+ year career it's only happened less than a handful of times for me.

So if any of those people reach out to me looking for connections, I'll absolutely do so because I also expect they'll return the favour when I need it. It's worked out for me before.

You don't have to invite them to your wedding. But having a brief if awkward friendly interaction and then passing on a referral for a posting or letting them know about some opportunity you may have heard of isn't "socializing", it's just a career skill.

We're all in this together. Being able to have a career that doesn't suck depends in large part on networking, not on your coding skills.

> Being able to have a career that doesn't suck depends in large part on networking, not on your coding skills.

I'm not sure this is the thread in which to do it, but I think this is an important thing for the "Rah Rah WFH" type folks to consider. Networking over Zoom/email/chat definitely isn't rare or impossible, but is a lot more limiting & difficult than in person.

I haven't found it too bad, I've actually formed some reasonable relationships in the last couple years job hopping after being stuck at Google. Though, yes, I am sick of WFH and would love to go back to in person if the local options were better. (But also just sick of working, generally :-) so...)

But I can definitely see it could be tricky for introverted types, or people just starting their career.

What I want more than anything is a stronger separation between domestic and professional workspace.

That's a really interesting POV and I totally get where you are coming from.

It just never happened to me, I picked my jobs myself, bootstrapped my companies without promoting it in a inner circle.

In fact most people I know got their job by just applying for it or recruiting companies.

I wonder where I would be at if I had networking skills, when my coding skills already brought me everywhere I wanted to be.

Maybe it's cultural, maybe it's just my social circle.

It's about showing that you care about the person, not JUST what they can do for you, your job search, or your career.

People don't like feeling like a tool other people use to get what they want.

Or do you mean reaching out at all for a referral? This is simply because HR and managers love knowing that someone, ANYONE, likes you enough to be willing to work with you again.