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Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by sakex on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:37AM (#36811473)
Do we know if this could have an impact on the local population? Also is there any research on the effect of the LHC on people living in Geneva and around?
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by jjgreen on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:42AM (#36811505)
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by fabian2k on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:43AM (#36811506)
> During such a quench, the liquid helium in the magnet warms up and turns into a gas that is recovered by the cryogenic system to be re-liquified, ready to cool down the magnets again.

They're capturing the helium, so it isn't released usually. Not sure what they do with the nitrogen, I'd guess that is released as it is much cheaper. But in any case the amounts involved in such a quench are only a danger in the immediate vicinity, not outside. So if you're in the same room as a quenching magnet and the room isn't sufficiently sized or ventilated, there could be danger. But that's about the limit to it.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by Ekaros on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:31AM (#36811819)
Took a tour in local university physics lab dealing with helium. My takeaway is that liquid nitrogen is essentially free. And used to protect or keep helium parts colder. So anyway in process you have so much of it that simply having it boil away or be discarded is not big deal.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by gus_massa on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:55AM (#36812784)
A few years ago, while doing a physics lab for students in the university, we needed ice and liquid nitrogen. It was weird that is was easier to get some liquid nitrogen[1] than ice cubes[2]. IIRC we asked for the official price of liquid nitrogen, and it was similar to the price of soft drink like coke.

[1] Because it was used regularly in a few of the research labs. Just get a dewar flask that is not made of glass, and ask nicely.

[2] No refrigerator in the lab, the cafeteria didn't have any, most refrigerators had no ice cubes or a huge ice block where there use to be the ice cubes shelf.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by SoftTalker on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:19PM (#36815699)
It's comparatively free; the air is nearly 80% nitrogen. The equipment to produce liquid nitrogen has a cost and uses a fair amount of electricity. Labs that use a lot of liquid nitrogen may produce their own, but often it's produced industrially in large quantities and trucked to customer sites.

It has a lot of uses, from dermatology to machine shops.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by meindnoch on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:43AM (#36811507)
Severe mutations and deformities.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by DoctorOetker on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:45AM (#36811904)
Brain damage for the schedule programmer.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by SiempreViernes on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:43AM (#36811510)
Uh, I guess some of the locals will get second-hand bummed-outedness from their acquaintances at CERN?

Did you even click on the link dude? The picture showing frost on the outside of a metal tube in a sealed tunnel ~100 m under ground is the total extent of the exterior effects...

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by harperlee on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:44AM (#36811517)
It is a small leak of helium that disables a refrigeration unit.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by cominous on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:45AM (#36811521)
Read the article. It was a >local< event at one of the magnets which caused the whole magnet to freeze over. The "consequences" are, that the whole accelerator needs to halt operations to repair the element. That takes quite a while and will postpone the schedule..
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by defrost on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:53AM (#36811583)
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by phatskat on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:06AM (#36812857)
Thank you? Yes, thank you. I think.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by sakex on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:52AM (#36811573)
Sure but is it impossible that something would leak when injecting massive amounts of energy in a gigantic tunnel?
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by constantcrying on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:00AM (#36811624)
But what would leak? The helium? The nitrogen?

The only real danger is if you are in an enclosed space and oxygen is displaced. Nitrogen gas is about the least toxic substance imaginable and helium will literally just go away unless you make absolutely sure to trap it.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by __alexs on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:20AM (#36811753)
> Nitrogen gas is about the least toxic substance imaginable

Interestingly basically all gasses appear to be bad for you in some way. Perhaps the vacuum of space truly is where we belong? /s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis

I can't find the study right now but I think this affect is even measurable at atmospheric pressure in that if you give replace the Nitrogen with other noble gasses you can observe improvements in cognitive function.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by constantcrying on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:34AM (#36811835)
100% of substances are bad for you under some circumstances.

You have breathed in millions of liters of nitrogen. It is as safe as any substance could possibly be.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by flangola7 on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:33AM (#36811827)
Besides helium, what substances are you worried about leaking?
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by MikeDelta on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:51AM (#36811946)
The amounts of energy injected are not that large. 1TeV, the order of magnitude, is (according to google) the motion energy of a flying mosquito. You don't even feel that landing on your body.

The special part is that this energy is put into one particle, which makes it able to achieve other interactions.

Such particles sound scary, but the only special thing about this is that we, humans, have produced that. Our earth is bombarded constantly by cosmic high-energy particles of much much higher energy [0]. I am talking about extra-galactic particles with energy levels unknown to earth.

[0] https://masterclass.icecube.wisc.edu/en/analyses/cosmic-ray-...

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by imdsm on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:45AM (#36811526)
Do we know if... the magnet heating up, and the helium leaking into the vacuum chamber... could have an impact on the local population? I think they'll be ok!
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by contravariant on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:51AM (#36811568)
I mean worst that could happen is that it's harmful to someone standing right next to it if it fails catastrophically (no clue if that's even a realistic concern in this case). But since this happens over 50 meters below ground I'm not too worried.

Not that it was put that far below ground for safety reasons, it was mostly to save on the amount of land required and to shield the detectors from pesky background radiation (not the other way around).

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by cesarb on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:27AM (#36814925)
> I mean worst that could happen is that it's harmful to someone standing right next to it if it fails catastrophically (no clue if that's even a realistic concern in this case).

AFAIK, these areas are restricted while the LHC is operating, so there would be nobody near it (and I believe trying to enter these areas triggers an interlock which stops the whole system before you can get near it).

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by salawat on Saturday July 22, 2023 @04:37PM (#36829648)
If the beam shaping catastrophically fails due to the magnet failing completely, as I understand it, you can get a beam excursion from the beam track that results in a hell of a lot of irradiated earth as the beam does what beams do to everything in its way.

IIRC from my short time intersecting with the finer points of collider discussion, they locate them in such areas where generally if such things happen, it's a non-issue; but take great pains to ensure that such events don't happen, as it would require potential excavation and removal of a lot of hardware to replace the irradiated sections to restore a contamination free loop. It's also, if I recall correctly, part of why circular paths were chosen instead of things like ovals or capsules for the path shape among other factors I think like optimization for cheapest construction.

Any loss of beam containment would continue on a tangent ensuring one and only one segment of the collider would potentially have to be replaced; other shapes would end up with magnets that were relatively more catastrophic to have fail due to the excursion geometry having more opportunities to escape along a path near parallel to the track, allowing the irradiation of additional accelerator segments. Which would be a hell of a lot more expensive to remediate.

I sometimes laugh, because in the business world, people like to talk about what is 'reasonably forseeable'. I'm a bit of a stick in the mud at such times because I can generally say that exactly no one in the room is actually interested in ptobing the actual boundaries of the reasonably forseeable, as that would require doing too much math. I'm regularly right in that regard.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by gostsamo on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:46AM (#36811529)
Noble gases are not chemically active, but some interdementional rifts might allow access of alternative life forms to our reality.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by rob74 on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:07AM (#36811669)
I think you're mixing things up - the incident you are referring to happened at the Black Mesa Research Facility, not at the LHC...
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by gostsamo on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:16AM (#36811720)
The LHC was a cover. Do you really think that governments honestly will spend billions for fundamental science without a back motive? It is the ideal environment to hide a secret base where they can divert money, energy, and people to.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by Aardwolf on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:46AM (#36811538)
Unbelievable the LHC is already running for 15 years! When it was just finished it was still the heyday of funny flash animations on the internet, some of course joking about the LHC ending the world:

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/469806

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by zamalek on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:56AM (#36811604)
You never know, it might have been one of those time-travelling tachyons coming back to prevent its own creation (an actual conspiracy theory during the initial problems at LHC).

For anyone genuinely concerned about LHC, we've detected cosmic rays hitting our atmosphere at orders of magnitude more energy than what LHC is doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh-My-God_particle

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by Filligree on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:07AM (#36811668)
Not sure how seriously anyone ever took it, but-

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/C2uvzYeoMkwMmscMx/hamster-in...

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by throttlebody on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:20PM (#36815722)
How does that bode for space travel and being on the moon. That's a lot of energy
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by zamalek on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:07PM (#36820573)
A few inches of water or regolith would probably be enough for shielding.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by sakex on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:50AM (#36811563)
Yes I think it's great, but still it would be good to have research to understand the effect on local population.

It is intellectually dishonest to just say it is not possible for anything to leak and have adverse effects on people without actively researching the matter.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by DoctorOetker on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:38AM (#36811856)
As the article says, quenches sometimes happen.

Effects on the local population? You mean those who work there underground? Their voice may change pitch a little, but its only a temporary effect.

Helium is present in our atmosphere. And presumably on your birthday party when a balloon was popped.

Effects on the wider population?

A couple of delays and reorganizations at the surrounding hotels and restaurants.

Basically: the telephone will ring.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by fabian2k on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:01AM (#36811630)
We know what helium and nitrogen gas do and what dangers they represent. We also know how much of them are in the LHC. The main danger is that both displace oxygen, so you can suffocate e.g. if a large amount of helium is released by a quench in a small room. But this isn't any danger to the surrounding area, there just isn't enough liquid helium or nitrogen in there.

Both gases are inert, so they really don't do anything else. There isn't anything to investigate here.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by MikeDelta on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:32AM (#36811826)
Don't you think the Swiss and French governments wouldn't have thought about safety almost 70 years ago?

Safety is an important part of the collaboration, which is evident when you work there.

This is evaluated by people who understand physics, chemistry, and biology, and it is the alternative science people that tend to not want to believe that and keep warning of dangers that don't exist.

It is good to always remain critical, but after a while you've used up all arguments to explain that the radiation in your microwave is not radioactive.

I guess the scary part is that they called it a leak instead of a hole. I am sure if I say there is a leak in my sock that some will start to worry.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by throwawaylinux on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:02AM (#36812016)
> Don't you think the Swiss and French governments wouldn't have thought about safety almost 70 years ago?

This isn't an argument. 70 years ago France was conducting atmospheric nuclear tests that caused people and inhabited land to be exposed radioactive fallout.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by Xixi on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:49AM (#36813729)
France wasn't conducting atmospheric nuclear tests in Europe. So maybe officials were indeed thinking of safety, but with a hint (or a bucketload) of cynicism...
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by bradrn on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:58AM (#36811610)
The was a small leak of helium within the instrument. Such incidents are completely unexceptional with superconducting magnets, and pose no risk to anyone outside the room where it happen, since both helium and nitrogen are about as inert as gases can get. I suspect it wouldn’t even have made the news if it hadn’t delayed the experiments.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by contravariant on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:52AM (#36811575)
You should really do some more extensive research about the possible harmful effects of your comments more carefully before posting.

This one is giving me a headache.

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by db48x on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:18AM (#36811733)
It’s just helium. Have you ever bought a helium balloon, the kind that float? This is the same stuff that’s in the balloon. It’s also used as a mixture gas by deep–sea divers. It's chemically completely inert; breathing it in doesn’t have any particular effect on the body. It’s harmless, unless you fill an entire room with it so that all the oxygen is displaced.

Are people really so scientifically illiterate that they immediately assume that if anything goes wrong with a complicated machine that it will be harmful to their health?

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by gus_massa on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:47AM (#36813154)
My guess is that people imagine that the high energy particle beam transforms the helium and nitrogen used to cool the magnets in radioactive gases that may be dangerous.

But the beam never colides with the gas deposits. The helium and nitrogen are used to cool the magnets that are used to bend the beam that travels inside a vacuum tube.

[And even if the beam colides with the gas deposits, I don't expect too much radioactive waste. Each particle in the beam has a lot of energy, but there are very few. This links https://public-archive.web.cern.ch/en/lhc/Facts-en.html says "trillions" ( 10^12 ?) of protons, but a glass of water has like 10^26 protons. A nuclear power plant has much more radioactive material and during normal operation produce much more collisions that can turn container radioactive.]

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by db48x on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:47PM (#36822362)
I’m not sure it’s safe to make that assumption. I really think people just hear the word “leak” and assume the worst.
Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by pif on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:30AM (#36811810)
What do you propose exactly? What should we monitor?

By the way, I worked at CERN for a few years up to the first months of operations of LHC. Furthermore, I've been living in the region since then; for several years, my home was exactly over the LHC tunnel.

I've never got a nightmare from that!

Re:Quench of LHC inner triplet magnet causes a small leak wi... by SoftTalker on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:20PM (#36815717)
Not sure, but the engineers all came running out of the room talking like Mickey Mouse.