I know someone who grew up near a US base in the Philippines. Her father was employed as a cook at the base. When the base was closed, they went back to eeking out a living through subsistence farming.

There are some positive economic impacts for the locals.

Then there is Okinawa and like a thorn, despite all their rejection, we remain unwelcome squatters.

I mean, starting a war comes at a cost sometimes.

Well, it depends on which "they" you're referring to. The Japanese love hosting the US bases there, except that Okinawa is to Japan largely as Puerto Rico is to the US, and the Okinawans themselves are quite unhappy to be the actual hosts (surely not helped by soldiers' predilections for raping local girls).

Capitalism good according to capitalism

Look at the bourgeoisie!

-- Socialism pointing at subsistence farmers happy at earning a good wage

That's how it works ruling class makes up the "party line"

https://dc-office.org/basedata#p5 I highly recommend reading the Okinawa prefectural government's DC office fact sheet. Short story: There'd be a lot more useful economic activity from developing the land these bases are on.

(Okinawa has DC offices because the prefecture and the Japanese mainland gov't are not aligned on these topics at all. The prefecture basically wants these bases gone, and don't really want SDF bases there either. Tokyo wants the bases.)

This could be (and has been) said about literally any "first peoples" anywhere. Does something about them being "islanders" change things for you?

Oh so since we’ve screwed natives before, it’s fine to do it again to islanders? We shouldn’t ask these questions because we’ve done worse anyway?

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you.

Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones?

Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want.

Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders).

If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading natives was wrong and taking land from islanders *IS* wrong.

Disagree?

> But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

Because before significant aid could even reach Ukraine, the Ukrainians stopped Russia - ergo they didn’t “defeat the natives” and instead are being defeated.

So your comparison here doesn’t really make sense. It also doesn’t make sense because we Russia is actively attacking Ukraine today.

I don’t understand. By your logic, if Russia had defeated Ukraine, then it would’ve been fair and normal?

Islanders had their land taken from them and still don’t have it (just like natives). How is this different from Russia taking Ukraine’s land?

Yes. Unfortunately we live in a world where might makes right.

If Russia had kicked Ukraine's ass what do you think would have happened? NATO declaring war? Remember that Putin got away with Crimea in 2014.You only have sovereignty if you can defend it.

Fairness doesn't come into it.

Well that was your logic. I was pointing out that:

> How is this different from Russia taking Ukraine’s land?

Hasn’t happened yet (in the context of the 2022 invasion - aware of previous annexation). And bigger, more powerful countries like the United States are helping Ukraine stop Russia from doing so.

But since this is ongoing we can say “hey that’s wrong!” And do something about it. Not much we can do (though there is some) about events hundreds of years old.

So it’s normal because it has occurred through your history, and also possible for us to stop today, hence we are. If you want to really dig into the whole might makes right thing (and at the nation state level it does) then the US is the mightiest and is stopping Russia from taking from Ukraine.

I do not consider the stated material conditional logically invalid.

Are you saying the natives didn’t fight back?

I’m not saying that. Natives did fight back. Just like the brave Ukrainians.

It is possible to both agree with fighting back and trying to keep the peace such as it exists, and at the same time realize it’s obviously absurd to try to undo all the aggressions stretching back through history.

Of course it’s impossible to undo evils of the past. I’m talking about the present though. The islanders shouldn’t be invaded for “power projection” because they are human beings too. It’s pretty much the same thing Russia is doing.

> It’s pretty much the same thing Russia is doing.

Complete gibberish. You can’t seriously be claiming that cities in Guam are being turned to rubble under heavy artillery fire, and children being kidnapped etc.

Ukraine is at war.

Ukraine is still at war because the west is helping them repel an occupator.

Let's say China started supporting people in Guam who want independence, and supplying them with weapons - that would be just and a good thing, right?

Because you did posit in the previous reply that it's completely expected and a fact of life that larger powers overtake these smaller ones - like USA and Guam, and Russia and Ukraine.

> Let's say China started supporting people in Guam who want independence

Sounds like you’ve forgotten that Russia marched on Ukraine’s capital, deliberately shelling civilian targets, and Ukraine fought off the Russians on their own for weeks, completely defying everyone’s expectations, which is why the West is now supplying weapons to them.

On top of that Ukraine was an independent state with a treaty with a Russia guaranteeing that.

Can you tell us again how Guan is like Ukraine?

> you did posit in the previous reply that it's completely expected and a fact of life that larger powers overtake these smaller ones

I think you’re just making that you, but in case you aren’t you’ll be able to quote where I said that.

I don't think you can sensibly describe Guam as "being invaded" at this point. Last time there was a referendum there, outright independence from US got less than 4% of the vote. What they rightly want is proper representation within US.

We hold and use Guam for the same reason we support Ukraine against Russia: We believe these things are in our interests.

The justifications we give are just words.

Of course. The trick is to at least somewhat align your interests with the moral high ground.

It actually makes a difference in the long run.

>>why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

Jesus christ, that's a logical jump if I've ever seen one, but ok, I'll bite:

IF Russia succeeds at taking Ukraine, then sure in few hundred years it should be accepted as "normal" that's just what Russia's territory is. Just like most European countries where their borders have shifted through wars and violence many times in the past. That doesn't make the present actions ok, just like the past actions of European colonists in North America aren't ok.

There is literally ZERO reason to accept what Russia is doing now. They should be fought against with all might that can be offered, because it's barbaric, brutal, and has no reason to happen. Just like I'm sure Native Americans and all "first people" of any lands have fought against invaders in their time.

> But it's sad that its at the expense of human beings who live and work there

Why do you think it is happening at their expense? The other option is leaving these alone and letting the likes of China and Russia run the world.