- They don't need your contact list to still build your contact graph.

- They still collect things like your location, your call history, etc. In Brazil it's quite common for people to use WhatsApp to call their doctors. This means that Facebook can know what type of health issues you have just by checking if you are calling/texting a specialist.

- They are still owned by Facebook and they take whatever data they can to feed the Borg.

- I can not prove it, but I am convinced that they scan the video stream in the device.

> I can not prove it, but I am convinced that they scan the video stream in the device.

You can't prove it, alright. But do you mind sharing why you are convinced they scan the video stream?

In a public forum, I do mind it. Sorry.

It's nothing really embarrassing or wrong, but I worry that it might be taken out of context.

Ok. that's fair. thanks for taking the time to respond. appreciate it.

Why wouldn't you assume they do? Sorry if that sounds argumentative, it's not my intent. As I understand it, their software processes everything you send to/through them. (And it's easy to imagine reasons why they would be interested in doing so)

Taking your first three points as true, the trade is you get free global multi-way instant messaging, including pictures and video/audio clips, and video calling, for no cost other than minimal data costs.

Lots of people are currently willing to make that trade, at least until a competitor comes along that offers something better.

The fact that lots of people are willing to make that trade does not make it good or ethical.

> at least until a competitor comes along that offers something better.

Next year, the EU is going to force all messenger platforms to interoperate. Then we will be able to really compare.

Love to know how e2ee will work with this!

I recently started using WhatsApp regularly because it's the only convenient end-to-end encrypted messaging app I know. The only thing they seem to be getting out of it is some metadata and the opportunity to sell services to busisnesses. Seems like an acceptable compromise to me.

Previously I used Matrix/Element but never got it to work reliably with my friends (decryption issues, session verification obsession). And Signal has no web app. So WhatsApp it is for now.

It is an extraordinary expectation that a piece of software under that ownership will not collect data.

It's also an extraordinary expectation that your friends will use the messaging system you dictate.

If I tell a friend "I am not going to use WhatsApp. But you can call me, email me, text me, use Signal, use Matrix, knock on my door..." and this friend refuses to keep in touch, who is the one "dictating" the messaging system?

You.

If 20 of your friend's are using Whatsapp to communicate just fine, and you demand they change their mode of communication to suit your needs.

I'm starting to see why the trope of techies are anti social is so prevalent. Some of you really are absolutely socially inept.

I'm not asking them to change their mode of communication with others. I'm just saying that I'm not going to join something that I believe to be harmful out of peer pressure.

> Some of you really are absolutely socially inept.

So if someone tells you "I'm sorry, I am not available at this channel, can we arrange some other method?" and you refuse to accomodate you take the other as socially inept?

It seems like you are projecting. Hard.

This is madness, I will say it explicitly, spelt-out.

There exist systems which may violate your privacy, and you think that a possible demand to use them from any third party would be "fair", aproblematic?!

Good normalcy is that if some acquaintance put as a condition any controversial constraint, such as destructive behaviour ("binge drinking" etc.), irresponsible behaviour, degrading behaviour (that spyware is part of this latter) - the reply is simply "No".

And that would be antisocial behaviour, "No, I will not get tattooed (etc.) just because you would like that"?!

Children have replaced Men in this world.

Edit: oh, and by the way: behaviour that would stick to the framework of proper Society would be «[anti-]social»?!?!?! That is a dire reversal terms, and it shows the (satanic) perversity these """societies""" have reached.

That sort of depends on your threat model. Are you making some ideological stand, or are you protecting yourself from harassment by the authorities?

It's not so weird to expect that your friends will acquiesce to your demand that they wear a seatbelt in your car, for instance.

you are an extraordinary man

Your friends dictate, many times subconsciously, much more important things that you do such as the clothes you wear or where you go on holiday.

But hey, I draw a line in the sand at the instant messenger! :-)))

> more important things

And your reply remains "No", right?

I have no control over what they do. If they’re so attached to using whatsapp that they’d stop being friends with me rather than use signal, the friendship wasn’t worth a lot in the first place.

I hope you do not have the expectation that in order to contact """friends""" one would ever adopt bestial behaviour. It takes a beast to act like a beast. Everybody will live according to nature.

Your post seems to be assumptions loaded. It sounds as if you were accusing strawmen of expecting people to behave rationally, wisely etc. That image has been superseded even in the theoretical grounds in which it had been used historically as a premise (e.g. Economics).

I’d be interested to know what, if anything, Meta does with WhatsApp metadata.

I'd be interested to know too, the social graphs they can build must be mesmerizing to browse through.

How does Meta make money? That is your answer.

We can suppose endlessly and make all the assumptions we want. I am more interested in facts.

Here’s a fact: Meta grossed $117 billion in 2022. Almost as much as a major car manufacturer. They’re doing things with that data. It’s a scary amount of power.

Hence my curiosity regarding the specifics.