> Discipline does work; it's ultimately what the 'bad' kids get when they have runins with the criminal justice system.

…and does that work? Recidivism rates would suggest otherwise.

Considering a large experiment has just occurred with progressive prosecutors no longer putting criminals in jail, and the SF prosecutor was recalled and a tough-on-crime mayor was elected in NYC, I think the results are that “throwing criminals in jail” works better than not.

As an NYC resident I can assure you in at least one of those examples you are vastly, vastly oversimplifying matters.

Both examples are silly and bad. Alameda County (Oakland) elected a tough on crime DA at about the same time as SF’s “reform” one and their crime rate increased more than SFs in that period.. there are no easy answers in policing or discipline.

Yes the “crime rate” when no one goes through the hassle to report petty crimes because it’s a pain in the ass and they won’t solve it anyway. The stats are a joke and everyone knows it.

Yeah except for this conversation, we're clearly talking about violent crime which increased in Oakland at a rate far greater than it did in SF.. and I can't imagine your contention that the people of San Francisco are less likely to report violent crime compared to people living 10 miles away..

To be fair, theres no way to reliably control for the affect of the da without a parallel universe with a weak on crime oakland da. Especially when certain violent crimes like murder are so rare in the population to begin with where a single multiple shooting event could skew things significantly year over year.

Yep. No argument there. Which definitely cuts both ways though. The 'weak on crime' DA in SF was lambasted and ultimately recalled for a crime spike that was smaller in magnitude than the crime spike in much of the country in areas with all manner of DAs and Policing policies.

If you want to treat crime through a disease model, then you should quarantine the infected and prevent transmissions, eg by them victimizing more people.

Somehow, that part of medicine never makes it into these “alternatives” — which makes claims of “systems thinking” or “crime as disease” sound like shallow pretenses for performative virtue rather than legitimate considered policy.

At no point did I say I wanted to treat crime through a disease model so your "shallow pretense" dismissal feels out of place.

All I'm saying is that it's pretty obvious jailing criminals is incredibly expensive and not particularly effective at reducing future crime.

I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise if this is a strongly held belief, but once a kid (or anyone) is in the criminal justice system they're pretty much doomed. I've seen this time and time again, it's all punishment and very little help. We literally enslave inmates in some states, they're picking cotton on former slave plantations. We need to get over this concept of punishment only.

> Discipline is not orthogonal to 'help'.

Yes, but discipline alone will never work. Never has.

>> We need to get over this concept of punishment only.

And replace it with what?

Depends on the circumstances. If someone gets a life sentence, then it's probably not a benefit to society to work on rehabilitation. If someone gets 5 years or so for a non-violent offense, then perhaps providing resources that foster hope of permanent change could benefit society rather than derail them from society entirely just to punish them. That can be a balance many factors, such as a display of discipline through good behavior in jail/prison, work release, learning a skill/trade so one can get a job to support themselves (the primary precursor to being a benefit to society), and some sort of job placement assistance or at least the removal of so many barriers.

Some of these exist to some degree already. Some of the issues are systemic and not just related to those in prison. For example, the decline of real wages over the past 50 years and the rise of barriers to entry for many things (renting, jobs, etc) has made it difficult for lower skilled individuals to succeed. If you feel you have no hope in the system, then you will be more inclined to act outside the system.

None of this is an excuse for someone to break the law, merely an observation that the current system might not be maximizing societal benefits but rather too focused on punishment alone.

Rehabilitation. We need to help people understand why they're constantly angry and impulsive, it can not be beaten out of them. For some people this can take a lifetime of mental health counseling.

I've seen irate voters at town meetings upset that tax dollars were being using to pay for books and tutoring for inmates, let alone mental health counseling. As a country the US is incredibly far off from the mindset of prisoner rehabilitation. We treat prisoners like animals, and for some reason are surprised when they keep acting like animals.

Or you can teach the normal kids how to defend themselves and unite against the bully.

The justice system is punishment. Proper disciplining would help foster discipline in the individual with teaching and guidance on how to make good choices and conform with those consistently.