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Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:15PM (#36553208)
I don't really know if NATO+allies would establish air superiority. However my guess is that they may use a combination of tactics from HALO insertions[1], long range missile strikes from land and sea, and around-the-clock bombing from stealth aircraft like the B2[2], to knock out AA batteries until the enemy can no longer adequately defend it's skies.

Then jets like the F-22[3] would be used to establish command of the airspace.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:17PM (#36554658)
Do you think the 30 year old B-2s will would be able to penetrate Russian air space? They've got quite the radar array and integrated air defense.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @05:14PM (#36555302)
Do you think that the B-2 is the latest that the U.S. has[1]?

It doesn't need to be singularly successful since it's part of a collective of redundant systems[2]. Air isn't working then increase missile strikes, missiles can't attain good effect on target then increase covert operations with local insurgencies, etc.

That's just some of the possible angles of attack. There's leaving out things like drones and cyber attacks that would also be employed to some effect.

Eventually the enemy loses the ability to fight since it's critical points are weakened to such a point it can no longer wage an effective resistance.

Another example: why attack heavily defended artillery positions when you can blow up the logistical route and starve them of rounds to attack with?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:25PM (#36555976)
What you described is exactly what Russia is doing to NATO backed Ukraine.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:34PM (#36556047)
How so?

How is Russia establishing air superiority over Ukraine now? Or is going to change the tempo of the war into their favor?

How does this pertain to them denying NATO+allies from probably eventually attaining air superiority in a hypothetical full conflict?

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:06PM (#36556694)
Well, for one - with impunity, Russian choppers over the last month have decimated the Ukrainian counteroffensive attempts to the point of shocking even Western observers. This is partially due to greatly degraded Ukrainian air defense after an intentional multi-month bombing campaign (using missiles, not planes - meaning no dead pilots). And Russia has shown to be very effective at intercepting various modern weapons systems via EW or direct.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:58PM (#36557045)
No one's doubting Russia has built a capable defense over the last year however that's not changing the direction of the war.

How many helicopters can Russia sustain to lose? They've lost several over the last few weeks.

Supply routes have be successfully attacked by Ukraine with estimates of slowing logistics by 50% in certain areas.

And again how many AA batteries can they sustain to lose?

Meanwhile Ukraine has made slow but steady advances forward gaining ground.

Where's Russia changing the direction? Is that by terrorizing civilian targets (your bombing campaign) and blowing up hydroelectric dams? So essentially they're just using the tactics of terrorists.

Yet they still can't freely fly over Ukraine because they still lack control over the skies.

When's Russia regaining the momentum in their favor? Last week one of their best units tried to storm Moscow and hang their top military leaders.

AND now Russia is more weakened to a full confrontation with NATO than they were before starting their war in Ukraine. So all the more likely to lose air superiority to NATO+allies.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by _kbh_ on Sunday July 02, 2023 @02:42AM (#36558910)
> And Russia has shown to be very effective at intercepting various modern weapons systems via EW or direct. Maybe they are evil incarnate, but they math good.

I dunno know about this part of the statement, the fact that we are still seeing long range deep strikes into important Russian territory (sometimes killing hundreds of soldiers at a time), tells me that maybe Russias EW and AA against semi modern cruise missiles isn't as good as people think.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Sunday July 02, 2023 @03:17AM (#36559088)
That doesn’t mean they have full coverage. The “front” is enormous.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by _kbh_ on Sunday July 02, 2023 @05:14AM (#36559743)
> That doesn’t mean they have full coverage. The “front” is enormous.

Yeah but these missile strikes have been hitting high value targets like air fields and troop barracks.

Regardless of if they can’t defend these areas because they don’t have the systems or the systems cannot intercept them it doesn’t bode well.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:16PM (#36557892)
B-21 hasn't even had it's first flight...
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:26PM (#36557950)
That we publicly know of. Of course there's also drones. I don't understand why you're fixated on one or two things that were meant as possible examples of potential tactics that could be deployed. You're missing the forest which is ways for gaining air supremacy. Feels like you're just trying to argue to argue now.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:15PM (#36557883)
Well, considering the reports coming out about how their radar systems have been deployed lacking the necessary gear (due to widespread corruption), I think that it's possible the B-2 could still penetrate. Russia's a huge country, and he who defends everything defends nothing.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:20PM (#36554690)
HALO insertions against an A2AD environment are suicide. Same with using something like an AC-130 in daylight. They rely on large, slow, easily detected transports.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:27PM (#36554780)
For fun, let's assume they could get in; the math still doesn't work. A bunch of parachuter guys with automatic guns and limited ammo vs Russian combined arms is going to end very poorly.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:44PM (#36554987)
Yeah, short of a Tom Clancy novel, using your best operators on a one-way trip doesn't work well.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:22PM (#36555956)
Yep. Russia lost some of its best paratroopers during the initial Kiev/Kyiv thing. Not a great investment and pretty incompetent planning.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:16PM (#36556349)
Well...

I guess they might have been Russia's best airborne units, but both at Hostomel and in other engagements, they've been shown to be overrated. Then again, Hostomel was a shitshow of poor planning/intel. I bet the VDV would have loved to know that there was a UKr unit right next door with heavy artillery before they kicked off the assault.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:11PM (#36555850)
So how do they stop cruise missiles and other artillery? Stop decoy missiles?

What happens when the enemy has exhausted it's supply of AA ammo?

Or lost use of its radar?

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:14PM (#36556319)
If the enemy's air defense is either DEAD or SEAD, then why would you need to insert operators/SForces via HALO? At that point you could just use helicopters to infiltrate/exfiltrate.

HALO is for opponents lacking AD and radar.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:03PM (#36556663)
I mean what's it matter though? HALO is just one option for insertion, the point is that there are multiple avenues of attack.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:49PM (#36556976)
Like what?
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:30PM (#36557268)
Well, you just spitballed a few ideas that really aren't founded in either US or NATO doctrine, and now you ask "what's it matter though?"
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:49PM (#36557367)
Around-the-clock bombing, missile and artillery strikes, and deep insertion of covert assets are not US/NATO doctrine? Did I watch a different invasion of Iraq than you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Invasion

Edit: If you're objecting to HALO insertion as a measure against AA then fine but even describe as a way around AA:

"The technique is used to airdrop supplies, equipment, or personnel at high altitudes, where aircraft can fly above surface-to-air missile (SAM) engagement levels through enemy skies without posing a threat to the transport or load. In the event that anti-aircraft cannons are active near the drop zone, the HALO technique also minimizes the parachutist's exposure to flak...

... The combination of high downward speed, minimal forward airspeed, and the use of only small amounts of metal helps to defeat radar and reduces the amount of time a parachute might be visible to ground observers, enabling a stealthy insertion."

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:13PM (#36557870)
Sigh, you really want to die on this hill...

1. Round the clock bombing. We saw how F-117, flying the same route day after day in Serbia was shot down by an S-75 Dvina (first deployed in 1957) in optical mode. You will never see a B-2 flying in daylight any more than you would see an AC130.

2. What US artillery can outrange an S300/S400? US artillery is already outranged by Russian artillery.

3. Missile strikes are the only thing you list that are even doctrinal against a modern A2AD system. And those are limited, as NATO found out when several members ran out of smart munitions when overthrowing Qaddafi. But yes, that's what we'd use. JASSM, Tomahawk, SCALP, etc.

4. Using Iraq as a measure of how we'd fight a near peer opponent is ridiculous. While Iraq had a large standing army, it was never a match for the US in 1991, much less 2003. There are numerous things we did in Iraq that we'd never have attempted in the Fulda Gap.

5. Finally, back to HALO. Sure the operator jumping out using HALO might have a minimized signature, but remember that big, lumbering transport that he's jumping out of? The one with the ginormous radar signature? Flying high (so the H in HALO) can occur, meaning every radar in the world can spot it? BOOM. Shot down as soon as it's in range of an S400. Which is roughly between 300 and 400KM. So if you're expecting a team dropping in by HALO to survive, you're delusional.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Sunday July 02, 2023 @01:38AM (#36558554)
Plus the tanker focused short range aircraft. Ruskies have a special missile designed just to take tankers out.

So you can’t refuel, your home runways are trashed and the carriers are sunk. Then what.

Range and logistics matters and the Ruskies have it in that neck of the woods.