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Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:20PM (#36554690)
HALO insertions against an A2AD environment are suicide. Same with using something like an AC-130 in daylight. They rely on large, slow, easily detected transports.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:27PM (#36554780)
For fun, let's assume they could get in; the math still doesn't work. A bunch of parachuter guys with automatic guns and limited ammo vs Russian combined arms is going to end very poorly.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:44PM (#36554987)
Yeah, short of a Tom Clancy novel, using your best operators on a one-way trip doesn't work well.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:22PM (#36555956)
Yep. Russia lost some of its best paratroopers during the initial Kiev/Kyiv thing. Not a great investment and pretty incompetent planning.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:16PM (#36556349)
Well...

I guess they might have been Russia's best airborne units, but both at Hostomel and in other engagements, they've been shown to be overrated. Then again, Hostomel was a shitshow of poor planning/intel. I bet the VDV would have loved to know that there was a UKr unit right next door with heavy artillery before they kicked off the assault.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:11PM (#36555850)
So how do they stop cruise missiles and other artillery? Stop decoy missiles?

What happens when the enemy has exhausted it's supply of AA ammo?

Or lost use of its radar?

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @07:14PM (#36556319)
If the enemy's air defense is either DEAD or SEAD, then why would you need to insert operators/SForces via HALO? At that point you could just use helicopters to infiltrate/exfiltrate.

HALO is for opponents lacking AD and radar.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:03PM (#36556663)
I mean what's it matter though? HALO is just one option for insertion, the point is that there are multiple avenues of attack.
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Saturday July 01, 2023 @08:49PM (#36556976)
Like what?
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:30PM (#36557268)
Well, you just spitballed a few ideas that really aren't founded in either US or NATO doctrine, and now you ask "what's it matter though?"
Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by armchairgen on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:49PM (#36557367)
Around-the-clock bombing, missile and artillery strikes, and deep insertion of covert assets are not US/NATO doctrine? Did I watch a different invasion of Iraq than you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Invasion

Edit: If you're objecting to HALO insertion as a measure against AA then fine but even describe as a way around AA:

"The technique is used to airdrop supplies, equipment, or personnel at high altitudes, where aircraft can fly above surface-to-air missile (SAM) engagement levels through enemy skies without posing a threat to the transport or load. In the event that anti-aircraft cannons are active near the drop zone, the HALO technique also minimizes the parachutist's exposure to flak...

... The combination of high downward speed, minimal forward airspeed, and the use of only small amounts of metal helps to defeat radar and reduces the amount of time a parachute might be visible to ground observers, enabling a stealthy insertion."

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by greedo on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:13PM (#36557870)
Sigh, you really want to die on this hill...

1. Round the clock bombing. We saw how F-117, flying the same route day after day in Serbia was shot down by an S-75 Dvina (first deployed in 1957) in optical mode. You will never see a B-2 flying in daylight any more than you would see an AC130.

2. What US artillery can outrange an S300/S400? US artillery is already outranged by Russian artillery.

3. Missile strikes are the only thing you list that are even doctrinal against a modern A2AD system. And those are limited, as NATO found out when several members ran out of smart munitions when overthrowing Qaddafi. But yes, that's what we'd use. JASSM, Tomahawk, SCALP, etc.

4. Using Iraq as a measure of how we'd fight a near peer opponent is ridiculous. While Iraq had a large standing army, it was never a match for the US in 1991, much less 2003. There are numerous things we did in Iraq that we'd never have attempted in the Fulda Gap.

5. Finally, back to HALO. Sure the operator jumping out using HALO might have a minimized signature, but remember that big, lumbering transport that he's jumping out of? The one with the ginormous radar signature? Flying high (so the H in HALO) can occur, meaning every radar in the world can spot it? BOOM. Shot down as soon as it's in range of an S400. Which is roughly between 300 and 400KM. So if you're expecting a team dropping in by HALO to survive, you're delusional.

Re:To Make More Stingers, US Needs to Revive Production Tech... by cpursley on Sunday July 02, 2023 @01:38AM (#36558554)
Plus the tanker focused short range aircraft. Ruskies have a special missile designed just to take tankers out.

So you can’t refuel, your home runways are trashed and the carriers are sunk. Then what.

Range and logistics matters and the Ruskies have it in that neck of the woods.