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Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by ranting-moth on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:15AM (#36478223)
IANAL but in many countries the judge might draw adverse inference and effectively assume what was in that evidence.

That wouldn't be in the deleters interest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_inference

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by danuker on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:01AM (#36478594)
The SEC is not in the justice business. It is a puppet of the banks themselves. A $4M fine is NOTHING for a company netting $12.62B a QUARTER.
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by Cthulhu_ on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:20AM (#36478757)
The $4M is a slap on the wrist, but if there's evidence that it was done on purpose, and the deleted data is evidence for a bigger case, they'd be in much bigger trouble still.

But, innocent until proven guilty; if there's no indication of any missing evidence, it'll stay at the failure to retain data fine.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by ndsipa_pomu on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:28AM (#36478851)
> Worse still, the stuffup meant that it couldn't produce evidence that that the SEC and others subpoenaed in their investigations. "In at least 12 civil securities-related regulatory investigations, eight of which were conducted by the Commission staff, JPMorgan received subpoenas and document requests for communications which could not be retrieved or produced because they had been deleted permanently," the SEC says.

That would seem to be an indication of missing evidence

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by chaostheory on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:52AM (#36479666)
No one went to jail for the 2008 crisis, and most of the regulatory bodies are private corporations masquerading as a public entity. To add salt to the wound, the SEC is very discerning as to when to enforce the law

It doesn’t matter whether or not the above paragraph is reality, because masses perceive it as reality, and trust in public institutions continues to dive. If confidence isn’t restored soon, then things might start to destabilize

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by gmd63 on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:15PM (#36481730)
I think corporations of "too big to fail" stature should have different legal protections than what are offered to humans.

Innocent until proven guilty is not quite fair to apply to corporations that get bailed out by taxpayers when the policemen are driving bicycles trying to enforce the speed limit on a highway full of McLarens.

When a company has positioned itself to be a critical organ of society, it should be required to function properly. The rules of nature do not forgive a well meaning hare that didn't intend to be eaten by a lion.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by pnemonic on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:34PM (#36482976)
The rules of nature do not forgive a well meaning hare that didn't intend to be eaten by a lion.

I love this. Consider yourself quoted.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by gmd63 on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:01PM (#36484253)
Thank you for the kind words.
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by danuker on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:25PM (#36487944)
I am of the position that no company should be allowed to become too big to fail. Or, if one does, it should be nationalized.

If its service is crucial and no other company can replace it, then there is a high risk that it makes use of its position by charging an arm and a leg for essential services.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by burkaman on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:13PM (#36482677)
> In at least twelve civil securities-related regulatory investigations, eight of which were conducted by the Commission staff, JPMorgan received subpoenas and document requests for communications which could not be retrieved or produced because they had been deleted permanently.

That is proof of missing evidence.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by pessimizer on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:48PM (#36484026)
> if there's evidence that it was done on purpose

Nobody (who isn't a moron) is going to send an email about intentionally doing this, or talk about it with someone who wouldn't also be implicated if discovered. If you saw everything, kept careful notes, and decided to become a whistleblower, your career would be destroyed and your life might even be in danger.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by chollida1 on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:56AM (#36479132)
> It is a puppet of the banks themselves.

This is ofcourse false. But given how little effort you made on this comment i assume nothing will change your mind:(

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/business/banks-fined-text...

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-174

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-206

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by deelly on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:11AM (#36479258)
Fact that SEC sometimes fine some banks doesn't mean that SEC completely safe from influence from big banks. As usual its not a black and white picture.
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by idiot900 on Monday June 26, 2023 @10:02AM (#36479772)
Who works in the SEC? Former bank/finance employees. Where will these employees go work if they decide to leave the SEC?
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by JumpCrisscross on Monday June 26, 2023 @11:29AM (#36480988)
> Who works in the SEC? Former bank/finance employees

Source? There is a revolving door, but it’s as much between industry and the SEC as it is between it and the rest of the public sector.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by danuker on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:38PM (#36488003)
https://www.sec.gov/about/commissioners

Well, honestly I am surprised at how extensive the commissioners' background is in public service and/or education.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by meepmorp on Monday June 26, 2023 @11:37AM (#36481152)
What sort of work experience do you think the applicants for the jobs at the SEC ought to have?

If you need people people with experience in banking and finance, especially the legal and regulatory/compliance areas, where would you do your recruiting?

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by pessimizer on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:50PM (#36484055)
Do you think that only experienced murderers should adjudicate murder cases? Should all cops be expected to have extensive criminal experience, and should we expect them to return to crime after they retire from the police?
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by chollida1 on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:54PM (#36485709)
What you wrote is so far away from a good faith argument that it’s pretty hard to see it as anything other than low effort trolling.
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by salawat on Monday June 26, 2023 @06:08PM (#36486555)
They are actually making a very powerful point. A regulator is expected to at some point operate from an "external to industry" perspective. Much like a test framework or testing harness must exist out_of_band of the system under test.

A regulator that regularly pulls exclusively from industry insiders should raise eyebrows. Now whether the SEC actually pulls the majority of hires from industry insiders, that's another question I can't readily answer. Don't have those figures.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by salawat on Monday June 26, 2023 @06:03PM (#36486507)
This. If anything, insider experience tends to dull willingness to enforce because "it's how everyone does it". As a regulator, the public in a real way depends on you to be the lever that looks at how everyone does it, and be willing to say "not good enough"
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by danuker on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:50PM (#36488063)
The first two links describe the same event, if I can tell correctly.

A lot of people fail to realize how crucial financial institutions are for society. Everything we do has national currency as a middleman, and national currency is more under private control than under public.

$125M is a fee for stealing as much as you wish, since you have the power to print money. Need more assets? Just give out credit more loosely for a while. Then "accidentally" delete the records of what money went where, then get bailed out.

Commercial banks get to create and spend currency before its impact hits the wider market through inflation. In addition, the rate of creation has to continuously surpass debt repayment, otherwise there is a liquidity crisis. They have an immense privilege, and as such, should be held to much higher standards.

"Give me control over a nation's currency, and I care not who makes its laws."

If the violation of even the standards we have results in less than a month's worth of PROFIT for several years of wrongdoing, how are these rules or outcomes fair?

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by londons_explore on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:42AM (#36478979)
> assume what was in that evidence

So, what you're saying is that if the actual evidence shows something worse than what the judge will assume it says, then you should 'accidentally' delete it.

I think there are plenty of cases of this happening.

Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by mikeryan on Monday June 26, 2023 @09:37AM (#36479523)
I can’t tell from the article but JP Morgan may not be the defendant or target of investigation, in which case adverse interference won’t apply.
Re:JP Morgan accidentally deletes evidence in record retenti... by minorninth on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:19PM (#36481809)
I believe that can still happen. This was just a fine from the SEC, the legal consequences could come later.

Basically a lot of that email was subject to litigation holds. If that litigation ends up depending on some email that Chase was supposed to retain but failed to, the judge is allowed to give a "spoliation inference" instruction to the jury - the jury can infer that the evidence would have been unfavorable to Chase.

The fact that this may have been due to incompetence rather than malice means this is less likely.