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Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 22, 2023 @02:37AM (#36428697)
> Meditation comes from a religious context

I have seen no evidence of this. Many religious practices involve meditation. But they also commonly involve song; it doesn’t follow that singing comes from a religious context.

Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by bowsamic on Thursday June 22, 2023 @02:39AM (#36428715)
I have never encountered a form of meditation that wasn’t heavily inspired by a religious context, most often Vedic traditions or Buddhism. Can you give an example of a historically completely secular form of meditation?
Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 22, 2023 @02:43AM (#36428736)
Our earliest written records mention meditation within religious contexts. Both predate history. All modern organised practices of meditation derive from religious sources, but organised practices of meditation is a subset of meditation—mindfully training attention and awareness to achieve “a mentally clear and emotionally calm and stable state” [1]. (Seen another way: almost all our historical sources about medicine mention it in a religious context. That doesn’t mean medicine comes from religion.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by bowsamic on Thursday June 22, 2023 @02:47AM (#36428769)
This contradicts your singing example, since not all singing derives from religious sources, so why bring it up? You are making the same point as me right now: all modern meditation comes from religious sources
Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday June 22, 2023 @02:50AM (#36428784)
> not all singing derives from religious sources

If you look for the oldest written songs, they’re invariably religious. The evidence used to establish meditation as religiously derived is sufficient to prove the same for song.

In fact, with the evidence at hand, I could just as easily argue that all religion derives from meditation. Secularly speaking, that is a simpler hypothesis than the inverse.

> all modern meditation comes from religious sources

I said modern organised practices of meditation come from religious sources. That caveat is as big as the difference between organised religion and sprituality, generally.

Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by harimau777 on Thursday June 22, 2023 @08:39AM (#36431224)
I'm not sure that singing is really that separated from religious context. You'd have a hard time becoming a classically trained singer without singing a lot of classical Christian music. You wouldn't get far in Blues or Bluegrass without being exposed to traditional spirituals.
Re:Brains on Drugs: How tinkering with consciousness became ... by cscurmudgeon on Thursday June 22, 2023 @04:43PM (#36438668)
https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-meditation/

> The earliest written records of meditation come from the Hindu Vedas around 1500 BCE (Sharma, 2015). The Torah also contains a description of the patriarch Isaac going to “lasuach” in a field, a kind of Jewish meditation most likely practiced around 1000 BCE (Kaplan, 1985).

> I have seen no evidence of this.

That doesn't imply no evidence. In fact, there is tons of evidence that meditation originated from a religious context. It is not even controversial.