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Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by bsaul on Saturday June 10, 2023 @04:49AM (#36268833)
Very interesting, but this blog's conclusion misses the point though..

The fantastic part is its ability to work at the concept level. This technology proved to be efficient at building some graph of concepts and relations simply be feeding it huge amounts of token. For example with the moon hoax, it is able to synthesize in two sentences the main points of the hoax theory.

It still has limitations, but that's the major step everyone is impressed with.

Saying "but it's just a markov chain underneath, it's not intelligence" would be like discovering electric signals in the brain and concluding it can't be intelligence because it's just electricity.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by IIAOPSW on Saturday June 10, 2023 @05:35AM (#36269036)
There's people out there that actively do this, though its mostly traditional belief in a soul laundered through modern academic phrasing.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by somewhereoutth on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:15AM (#36269520)
It works at the level of patterns in the training corpus. That those patterns might correlate somewhat with underlying real concepts should be no great surprise - but it is not 'working' at that level.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by diablozzq on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:35AM (#36269640)
This describes humans in a nutshell. This is why people vary wildly in ability...

But we consider humans intelligent.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by mahathu on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:59AM (#36269752)
>This describes humans in a nutshell. This is why people vary wildly in ability...

Can you expand on that a little?

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by Sunhold on Saturday June 10, 2023 @08:16AM (#36269837)
More than 80% of college students get the following question wrong.[1] I'd say this is an example of naive pattern matching with no real reasoning.

Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken, and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in anti-nuclear demonstrations.

Which is more probable?

a) Linda is a bank teller. b) Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by andsoitis on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:07AM (#36270141)
> I'd say this is an example of naive pattern matching with no real reasoning.

It is an example of lack of mathematical (really probability) know how, not naïve pattern matching.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by bsaul on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:15AM (#36270642)
I'd say it's an example of misphrased questions that people will intuitively make sense of, and thus produce strictly incorrect answer.

Obviously, people rephrase the question into : is there more chance that she's a feminist or that she isn't ?

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday June 11, 2023 @08:19AM (#36280685)
Well, it's multiple-choice. So the "a" answer excludes the "b" answer by convention, and thus implies she isn't a feminist. Rephrase the question to remove that implication and I expect far more people will pick the "a" answer.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by qayxc on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:35AM (#36270336)
I'd say this is the very definition of "overthinking it" instead of pattern matching. Pattern matching would lead you straight to the correct answer - joint probability is always ≤ single probability. Meaning the information given in the question is just fluff. Pattern matching reduces to "Which is more probable: just A or else A ^ B?" at which point the correct answer becomes obvious.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by matthewdgreen on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:16AM (#36270660)
Phrasing this in terms of probability seems very weird in the first place.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by booleandilemma on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:19AM (#36270684)
Eh, the "correct" answer seems silly and overly mathematical to me.

The fact is, you can infer things about people based on things you know about people. I can pick a random user on HN, and knowing they're a user of HN, I can say it's probable that they work in technology. We don't need to bring statistics into it and turn it into a math problem.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by wwweston on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:22AM (#36270709)
Hank is 31 years old, single, outspoken, and very bright. Hank got a technical degree, and as a student was deeply interested in machine learning and the ethics & philosophy of potential artificial intelligence. He posts a problem on HN where he describes the personality, capabilities, interests, and background of a woman named Linda has and then asks people to reflect on her occupation, politics, and an intersection between the two. Which is more likely?

a) Hank has written us a human interest problem b) Hank has written us a human interest and a probability problem.

I don't think people are simply wrong about the Linda problem, I think they're imprecise about which question they're answering, and more or less think they're answering a question about what chances that Linda is a feminist vs what are the chances she's a bank teller not only using the givens+relevant priors about people but also their priors about what kind of question they're answering. It isn't "no real reasoning", it's just not high resolution enough to be technically correct by the standards of a constructed probability problem.

You can argue LLMs are also not quite high resolution enough and I'd accept that. In my mind the question is what it would take to get some kind of ML software to a place where if you trained it on enough probability problems it would be able to evaluate the Hank problem above, including the issue of whether (a) and (b) are actually independent. ;)

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by riizade on Saturday June 10, 2023 @05:46PM (#36275490)
This particular question doesn't seem like a fallacy to me.

I, like most people intuitively answered b). Given the explanation on the Wikipedia page I went "oh, of course, yeah", but then I thought about why I'd answer b) given that I'm fairly familiar with basic probability.

If you give me two options and ask me to pick between them, my brain is usually going to assume it's not a trivially true problem.

Language needs context for any sense to be made of it.

As a result of the above, reading the question, the intuitive reading makes the answer choices

a) Linda is a bank teller (implicitly, a bank teller NOT active in the feminist movement)

b) Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement.

This question is one of language, context, and interpretation, not of people failing to understand basic probability.

I suspect that if you prime people to excise interpretation of the question by presenting it as the following, the majority of people would guess correctly:

---

"Consider the following two statements:

1) Linda is a Bank Teller

2) Linda is active in the feminist movement

Which is more likely?

a) 1

b) 1 ^ 2"

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday June 11, 2023 @08:15AM (#36280654)
Multiple choice questions imply that other choices are excluded (unless an answer such as "all of the above" is a choice. So the implied question is:

a) Linda is a bank teller (and NOT active in the feminist movement) b) Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement

What you want it to be asking here is:

a) Linda is a bank teller, and may or may not be active in the feminist movement b) Linda is a bank teller, and is active in the feminist movement

Most college students have taken quite a few multiple-choice tests (particularly in the US, high-schools train for standardized multiple-choice tests). The question isn't asking what the mathematicians seem to think it's asking, because it's format conveys extra restrictions.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by somewhereoutth on Saturday June 10, 2023 @08:28AM (#36269905)
No, no it doesn't. Not even slightly. If you fed a human child only text from the internet you'd not produce a competent adult (by competent I mean able to feed themselves etc).

That some tech people think that human intelligence can be reduced to such "textural mechanics" betrays a lack of depth of understanding and even appreciation of the deep and complex world within which we find ourselves. Our written corpus is but a particular reflection of this reality - the shadows on the wall in Plato's cave if you will.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by darkerside on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:31AM (#36270315)
Feed themselves? You mean pick up a burger from the local McDonald's? There's got to be a better Turing test.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by kqr on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:33AM (#36270805)
Are you making the argument that children do not come with an innate ability to read text and thus cannot learn from it, or are you making the argument that the internet does not contain, among other things, fairly detailed instructions on various ways to feed oneself?
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by somewhereoutth on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:45AM (#36270928)
I'm saying that without the context of experiencing the underlying reality, text of itself is meaningless. What is a 'spoon' anyway??
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by kqr on Saturday June 10, 2023 @11:45AM (#36271520)
So you're saying one needs some sort of reference for which words refer to which real-world sensory experiences such as "the thing that looks like this is a spoon", and text models do not have sensory associations?
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by z7 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @12:31PM (#36271947)
Isn't "meaning" just how a word is used within a specific context? I think that was one of Wittgenstein's points. The word "dog" doesn't need to reference the underlying reality to have meaning. Its meaning emerges from its usage in relation to all other words. Language isn't a mirror of the external world, which is probably one of the reasons LLMs are so successful.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by throwuxiytayq on Saturday June 10, 2023 @12:40PM (#36272063)
I haven’t experienced cocaine. I haven’t ever seen cocaine (IRL). Nevertheless I think I have a decent grasp of what it is, how it works, how it affects people, and what I could (mis)use it for. Would you imply that my knowledge of cocaine isn’t true/real/useful? Is snorting a line the only way to reify the knowledge? (The answer is: the indirect way of obtaining information is sufficient for building a correct/useful/accurate world model, and there is no such thing as direct experience anyway - it’s signals coming down the wire all the way down.)
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by sudosysgen on Saturday June 10, 2023 @05:48PM (#36275510)
I think it's straightforwardly true that you cannot understand what it feels like to be under the influence of cocaine in the same way as someone that has been.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by 0xBABAD00C on Saturday June 10, 2023 @11:04AM (#36271123)
> Our written corpus is but a particular reflection of this reality - the shadows on the wall in Plato's cave if you will.

The irony here is that us humans (both individuals and collectives) experience a very "Plato's-cave-esque" version of reality, pretty much by design. The same Ancient Greeks built a functioning civilization that gave the world logic and physics and philosophy while believing utter nonsense about themselves and the world. We, the enlightened modern humans, also believe all kinds of nonsense about ourselves and the world, and have careful defense mechanisms against exploring anything beyond the "shadows on the wall" that we're allowed to observe by our tribal authorities. How many people still watch the "news", or even read "horoscopes", for instance? We are designed by evolution to simulate a tiny biased shadow/hallucination of reality that helps us/our tribes to thrive, and that includes self-delusions and collective blindness towards obvious BS (so we could organize around imaginary, but evolutionarily beneficial causes).

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by umanwizard on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:59AM (#36270515)
How do you know?
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by somewhereoutth on Saturday June 10, 2023 @10:55AM (#36271040)
Because that is all there is. By conservation of information you can't get out more than what you put in.

If it were interacting with the real world in some way (i.e. had 'eyes' and 'hands'), with a learning reward system, then maybe deeper patterns could get encoded.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by thumbuddy on Saturday June 10, 2023 @11:01AM (#36271096)
Don't you dare start bringing reality and applying theory to these matters! - someone somewhere
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by umanwizard on Sunday June 11, 2023 @07:14AM (#36280239)
That sounds like nonsense. What is “conservation of information”; can you define it precisely?
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by rifty on Saturday June 10, 2023 @09:26PM (#36277033)
This might not be fully convincing or rigorous, but here is one of the interactions i've had which make me lean towards patterns not concepts...

  I have some unique synonyms I know which are not in dictionaries or commonly used but I know when I have used them in conversation they understand.

  I ask the LLM to provide definitions for WordA and WordB. -They come back essentially the same.
  I ask the LLM if the two definitions are synonymous. -The LLM responds with yes.
  I then ask if WordA is synonymous with WordB. -It replies no.

To me through this and other interactions they don't actually conceptually hold things like the definition as the word. It responds DefinitionA is WordAs definition, it responds DefinitionB is WordBs definition. It follows that DefinitionA of WordA is synonymous with DefinitionB of WordB but not that WordA is synonymous with WordB...

I expect the above is solvable through pattern recognition with tokens. I think given enough information it becomes effectively indistinguishable and practically the same to us. The above is just a testament to how it is getting there... Since it delivers intellect it will be called intelligent, but it doesn't appear to me to be approaching it like human intelligence. Though maybe given enough information, or through different modalities, like the real world as the other commenter says, it will model some deeper coherency.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by umanwizard on Sunday June 11, 2023 @07:15AM (#36280244)
Have you tried that with GPT-4?
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by rifty on Sunday June 11, 2023 @12:56PM (#36283093)
The interaction and responses aren't as distilled as the example as you can imagine but yes
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by namaria on Monday June 12, 2023 @09:44AM (#36293311)
I find this debate fascinating, and I'm excited for more people realizing that a) We have a very, very blurry definition of intelligence, and b) As more people get convinced there is some intelligence in software, more people get convinced there is (or there might be) intelligence in animals. Whatever the bottom line on current LLMs is, the cultural change they might foster makes me smile.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by igammarays on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:21AM (#36269555)
I would say you are missing the point. Intelligence isn't just about being able produce sentences. I would say that dogs are intelligent, but LLMs are not.
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by bsaul on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:31AM (#36269622)
producing sentence wasn't what i referring to. Producing meaningful sentence was.

Dogs have behavior, which hints at them understanding some concepts (threat, food, etc).

LLVM neural nets can only express sentences, but that's not the interesting part.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by weebull on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:30AM (#36269615)
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.

-- Some silly movie

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by circuit10 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @08:51AM (#36270032)
They both have some form of intelligence but in different tasks
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by anothernewdude on Saturday June 10, 2023 @07:23AM (#36269567)
> Saying "but it's just a markov chain underneath, it's not intelligence" would be like discovering electric signals in the brain and concluding it can't be intelligence because it's just electricity.

What a terrible analogy. It would be like finding the brain is run by entirely random sampling processes and lacks any memory.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by circuit10 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @08:52AM (#36270037)
That wouldn’t make us not intelligent any more, it would mean that the brain is able to work really well within those limitations
Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by strogonoff on Saturday June 10, 2023 @11:11AM (#36271188)
LLM does not manipulate concepts, it only manipulates symbols/tokens. Its manipulation of concepts is a product of human imagination and anthropomorphism that we like to imbue everything around with.

Concluding that electric signals in the brain can't be intelligence because it's just electricity is a typical pitfall if one does not realize that electric signals in the brain are about as likely to be caused by intelligence as they are to be causing it. Those signals is just one model offered by physics nowadays, which says nothing about the causal direction between those and things like consciousness.

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by flangola7 on Saturday June 10, 2023 @04:07PM (#36274539)
> LLM does not manipulate concepts, it only manipulates symbols/tokens. Its manipulation of concepts is a product of human imagination and anthropomorphism that we like to imbue everything around with.

Do you have proof of this? Who is to say we aren't anthropomorphizing other humans? They're just manipulating electrical charges after all.

Phrased another way, if LLMs actually did manipulate concepts, how would their performance differ? What is a tangible example of the former and of the latter?

Re:LLMs are better than you think at playing you by strogonoff on Sunday June 11, 2023 @06:38AM (#36280051)
We know this because we built the LLM and we know exactly how it works.