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Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by space_invaders on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:01AM (#36253428)
Google has turned into the "new IBM" for years now. I've worked with Google engineers and managers from different "generations". It's shocking how the newer engineers are just your average consultancy engineer with leet code practice. They have little abstracting capabilities and would be pissed-off if you use some tool/workflow that's not "The Google Way™" (and that includes things like Github for code reviews (instead of Gerrit or a Gerrit-clone), multirepos or monorepos without Bazel, anything else than gRPC...).

And the managers... Oh, the managers... They just act for the sake of their own promotion even if that means damaging someone's else career or the company in the long term. And will complain about things not being done the "Google Way", even if the proposed Google Way failed multiple times in that context (startups and scaleups, in my case). But what's really shocking is how they have no interpersonal skills, to the point of making you constantly question yourself: how, why, did this person ended up in a management track in a supposedly Y-career company? How not only did they got there but also promoted multiple times for this role?

Google, as a company, is as cool as Oracle nowadays.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by Osiris on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:11AM (#36253502)
I worked at a startup with just 2 other engineers. They hired a guy from Google with a decade less experience than me.

When I arrived I was taking my time to understand the culture, company, needs, etc. before making any suggestions. One example, they did Agile with sprints and I think KANBAN works better. But, I didn’t see it as an important issue to spend time on.

So the Google guy comes in and from day 1 began making suggestions for big changes to both process and the software architecture. He often started by saying, “At Google we…”

I was let go, in part, because the CEO thought I was not contributing to certain technical discussions. I told him I thought the proposed change wouldn’t bring any value to potential customers because it was a purely internal architectural change. We had a lot of actual customer facing work to do and this was a distraction.

So… a guy with only 5 years of professional experience all at Google won over the 26 year old CEO more than someone with 20 years of experience across multiple companies and having built a very similar product just a year before.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by anon848553 on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:37AM (#36253705)
I have experienced a similar situation at a startup. I was an early employee with many years of experience, and we were shipping functionality without any major issues. After a big investment round, we hired several new developers.

The new developers managed to convince the leadership that we needed "better" processes, and other technologies. The result of this was rewiting the system into more micro services than developers in different languages and multiple frameworks. The new processes ensured that teams didn't talk together because each team should be independent. The startup failed hard and barely survived even after major cuts

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by ch4s3 on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:17AM (#36253549)
You’re probably better off without that nonsense.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by epicureanideal on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:55AM (#36253835)
Except that nonsense is 90% of startups these days. Most of the people who get funded are well connected fools or charlatans. I’m shocked at how poorly money is invested.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by wahnfrieden on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:39AM (#36253719)
The worker wasn’t the problem, the boss’s imposed hierarchy of command was
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by adastra22 on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:21AM (#36253582)
Sounds like you dodged a bullet.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by listenallyall on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:19AM (#36253999)
Dodging the bullet is not getting hired by a shitty company. Getting fired, even if it's by the same shitty company, is taking the bullet.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by lowbloodsugar on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:15AM (#36253529)
If the CEO thought process used in a megacorp was appropriate for a four engineer startup, then he is a fucking idiot and you are better off out of that impending cluster fuck.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by bushbaba on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:01AM (#36253878)
Often those who’ve only worked at small companies don’t grock how much organizational bloat is needed to run a large enterprise. Alignment cannot be done in a 50k employee company by having everyone hash it out over beers.

Large companies also tend to have sociopaths become the VPs, who only care about their career progression and not the actual company direction.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by prepend on Friday June 09, 2023 @08:25AM (#36256792)
> grock

“Grok” is from Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land. It was a super important word to me as a kid. I’ve recently started hearing it again used by people who never read the book and find it interesting.

Do you remember where you first heard this word? I assume you heard it as it’s such a memorable word and difficult to misspell.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by alephnerd on Friday June 09, 2023 @09:50AM (#36257798)
Not OP but I use the word Grok a bunch without having read Heinlein.

I heard about it from graybeards and HN, hence why there might be a resurgence now that HN is mainstream.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by lowbloodsugar on Friday June 09, 2023 @12:33PM (#36260336)
The failure begins at around 150 employees, from what I've seen in startups I joined when smaller and grew to that point.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by jedmeyers on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:24AM (#36253607)
You might have had 20 years of experience building products that don't need to scale for millions of concurrent users, if you consider all "purely internal architectural changes" to be lower priority than the customer facing work just because it's purely internal. And the Google guy might have tried to spend time scaling a product that will have five concurrent users, because "this is Google" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6L-FlfeaI). It's all about perspective, and CEO thought the other perspective was more valuable.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by Stephen_0xFF on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:29AM (#36254069)
He mentioned there was a lot of customer facing issues to tackle, it was a startup, and their team had 4 devs. Scale shouldn’t be an issue until you know you’ll scale. Who cares if you use Kafka and Kubernetes. You sacrifice so much man power to do things thinking you’ll have a million users, but then fail like 90% of all other startups. I’ve never once heard of a startup failing because they had trouble scaling their architecture — just their business. We know he lost his job because the CEO valued the perspective of the ex googler, but the ex googler had 5 years on systems that were already large, massive man power, and budgets that dwarf startups. You’ll make any new CEO salivate showing road maps that will handle 1,000,000 concurrent users, but “handle” and road maps to “get to” are different.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by ffgjgf1 on Friday June 09, 2023 @01:54AM (#36253829)
> 26 year old CEO

In 95%+ cases that’s a pretty terrible idea

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by dumpster_fire on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:40AM (#36254157)
On the flip side, Xooglers are expected to do that. That's mostly the reason they are hired for. If they ever suggested just hosting a static page with 0.01 QPS on an existing API server, they'd be deemed as failed Googlers.

Everyone expects them to be building Kubernetes, Terraform, and other useless bullshit that a startup with a total critical traffic of 10QPS absolutely doesn't need.

We've also had ex-Facebookers back in the day who would throw out perfectly fine coding processes and get everyone to use Phabricator. Bloated software that took many engineering hours to design processes around, and came with features that no one with Atlassian would ever downgrade to use. It was like coding with PHPBB.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by alephnerd on Friday June 09, 2023 @09:48AM (#36257771)
1. Terraform is absolutely useful for both startups and enterprises. IaC makes everyone's (Platform, App, Ops, Security) lives easier from an accounting, governance, and reproducibility standpoint.

2. Terraform isn't a Google product. It's by Hashicorp

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by dumpster_fire on Friday June 09, 2023 @11:45AM (#36259568)
I know Terraform isn't by Google. I'm saying that's what Xooglers are expected to know since this new meta of IaC buzzword has been present in Google for close to a decade. It's nothing new.

Also, do you really need it when you're a startup running 3 EC2 clusters with "potentially tons of customers"? No.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by sharts on Friday June 09, 2023 @05:37AM (#36255446)
That's why they say having "Google" on your resume sets you up forever (˃̣̣̥‿˂̣̣̥)
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by u801e on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:00AM (#36253868)
> that includes things like Github for code reviews

I've never worked at Google, but if you want a clean set of commits to implement a feature (think Linux kernel/subsystem, git, etc), Github makes it unnecessarily hard to do that. The best they have is squash and merge which basically makes one mega commit and a merge commit that references a branch with a single commit.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by seanhunter on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:40AM (#36254160)
Most shops I've worked in use squash and merge (or rebase) always. This prevents unnecessary repo bloat as the number of devs, code base and number of commits gets large and removes all those "Typo".... "Typo again".... "Sigh. Working now (I think)" type of commits that really don't add anything meaningful to the context.

With squash and merge you get chunky, meaningful commits that (with discipline) are tagged to a specific issue/feature so it's really easy to understand the history.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by bottom999mottob on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:15AM (#36253975)
You think Gerrit is any better? The way I've seen Gerrit used essentially erases the commit history with an amend, and its configured so only one person can work on a branch at a time, locking out vertical, parallel work. Maybe that's just been my experience however.
Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by baq on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:07AM (#36254352)
I’ve just reviewed ‘spr’, ‘git-spr’ and ‘git-grok’ which supposedly make it easier to submit a stack of prs for review. They all kinda work, I didn’t like any though. GitHub really makes it more difficult than it should be.

I think ‘stg’ with a GitHub publish/stack sync option would be a winner.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by voytec on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:11AM (#36253947)
> Google, as a company, is as cool as Oracle nowadays.

Feeling rather uncomfortable as Devil's advocate in this case but I was testing Oracle Cloud Infrastructure as a cost-saving replacement for Google Cloud Platform recently and they are worlds apart.

GCP is a cloud service where you can issue a command or click on a web panel to get your resources up. Oracle, on the other hand, will set up multiple meetings with various "specialists" to teach you how a cloud should be used. Unproductive meeting after meeting after meeting and no work gets done.

I felt like an unpaid QA engineer when going over all the unpleasantries of their Terraform provider with them. Documentation is garbage and no variables are are explained[1]? No problem, we've got 5 specialists who will train you how you should use the cloud.

Here's a generous free tier so you can test everything. Oh, want to set up resources using it? Raise a support ticket. Want GPU VMs? No problem, request the hardware for a specific region days in advance and we hope it'll work. Oh, not working? Please share your screen and open a support ticket. Want a second VM instance or a node pool for your cluster? Request limit increase. Want more RAM? Request limit increase. Don't worry, we have a team granting these very quickly.

Absolute shitshow. Oracle Cloud is as frustrating as Digital Ocean when you try to treat it as a cloud and not a VPS vendor. GCP more or less "just works".

[1] https://registry.terraform.io/providers/oracle/oci/latest/do...

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by jrockway on Friday June 09, 2023 @02:41AM (#36254168)
I don't think that's a fair characterization. Newer engineers have no idea what to do, by virtue of having no job experience. While spending 4 years getting a degree, things like design patterns are drilled into their heads, and they think people ahead of them in their career won't respect them unless they make things as complicated as possible. As a result, things end up too complicated and too abstract, to the point of unusability. What you really want is someone that is the Matt's Script Archive of the modern day, modulo the shit that actually matters: maintainability, reliability, security, etc. Google hires a lot of people early in their career and the result is stuff that's TOO abstract. Eventually people progress and make simple and elegant solutions to very difficult problems. I can assure that every engineer at Google knows design patterns and how to abstract stuff. But the best among them know when not to.

I've always been impressed by the software quality at Google. My biggest complaint is... I'm kind of a test fanatic. In my mind, 100% code coverage is a great starting point for software that might run OK in production and delight customers. But at Google, people are so smart that they can keep a million line system completely bug free just out of sheer willpower. Every CL they write or review, they know exactly what it will break, and just tell the author to not break that. The end result is that there are 0 tests for the most critical software around and it all works out somehow! Ever visit google.com only to see "google.com is not responding"? Nope! You don't need tests when you're a super genius.

Overall, I think Google builds really good software internally. Everything I used while I was there, I long for in the "real world". Github's code review system just makes me cry every time I use it, even 6 years after I left Google. Critique was so much better! It looked nicer, the UI told you who actually needed to approve the CL, there was a dashboard that told you what work you actually needed to do, etc. Great software. Monarch is another favorite of mine. It is light years ahead of anything you can get in the open source world. When I left Google I begrudgingly selected Prometheus and Grafana as my "hey is production down?" system of choice? And every day they make me sad because they're so fucking primitive compared to what I could use at Google. I remember a long discussion thread between me and an InfluxDB founder on HN about whether or not it's possible to write certain queries. The query in question was a query that I had on a public dashboard at Google, that ran in milliseconds over a stream of 1 million plus cardinality. "There's no way a computer can do that efficiently," he told me. I don't know, I've had a computer do it efficiently before with the literal first query I typed in. And that's the market leader in time series data, probably two decades behind some unloved internal tool at Google. Their software is top fucking notch. They just have no idea that it's even something that can be sold. (The people at Google selling software rewrite or acquire sub-par alternatives. At least there's Cloud Spanner. That's a good database!)

I think I'm inclined to agree you about management at the highest level. Like I said before, Google has no idea they can sell their internal tools and make more money than most startups rewriting the tool from scratch could ever dream of making. They choose to go on multi-year tangents that yield nothing. Google Buzz? Google+? You got slapped on the wrist by the FTC for that shit, it didn't sell a single ad, and then the market leader you were trying to kill died anyway because everyone got bored with social media. Dumb. Let's talk about GSuite. As a card-carrying Google fanboi, I never believe that anyone else could make good webmail or a calendar. The startup I work at got acquired recently and we had to switch from Gsuite or actually is it Google Workspace For Your Domain or something now, anyway we had to switch to Outlook. Outlook on the web is great! The web design is beautiful, it's super fast, and it has a million more features than Google's stuff. Thinking back, I'm not sure anyone has typed a single line of code into any of those products in over a decade. They're just a dinosaur waiting to die! (Microsoft has it's own problems, though. They write a bunch of great code, and then ... just specify dumb shit. Like at work, my name is "Rockway, Jonathan". Who the fuck calls anyone by their last name? It's dehumanizing. It makes me not want to go to work. But that's how some intern coded up Active Directory Nineteen Ninety Four edition, and so it persists to this day).

I don't know where I was going with this comment, but yeah, the tech behemoths of yesteryear area dead. Remember "FAANG"? Facebook, completely dead, fired all their employees. Amazon? I guess they still exist to take CFOs out for golf in exchange for paying $1,000,000 for a $2000 server and $20 of electricity, and send me the best fire hazards from the Shenzhen market overnight. Apple? Honestly they're doing OK for a big company. Sure, they're working on VR goggles instead of a Clock app that works, but you know... marketing. Netflix? Dead. Google? Top Three In Cloud. Amazing. You know what they say, if you can't be second best, at least you can be third best.

This post was long and incoherent and I am now quite inebriated. I hope it was moderately enjoyable to read. I'm not a crazy person, I promise. It makes me sad to see what the MBAs and CFOs did to Google. Great company, and I'll never stop loving it.

Re:Google cuts office space in Bay Area by more than a milli... by whiplash451 on Friday June 09, 2023 @03:48AM (#36254656)
Not a Googler, but the point about gerrit vs gitlab is totally valid.

The tools you use are culture-defining.