News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by Animats on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:18PM (#36181450)
Just because a scam is profitable for the scammer doesn't mean the thing being sold works.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by valine on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:20PM (#36181461)
It kind of works, that’s the point. I pay for an FSD subscription because I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed?
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by agentgumshoe on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:55PM (#36181679)
When people have already been scammed, they will argue till blue in the face that it's not a scam, even if it's clear it is to everyone else...

So if I said yes, what's your response? No, of course.

Not saying everyone thinks it's a scam here, just that your argument it's not doesn't do much with the bias of already paying...

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by valine on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:05PM (#36182368)
I pay some money once a month for my car to drive me around. My car then drives me around.

My argument is that since I’m paying month by month I clearly know what I’m buying and have properly evaluated the value proposition. The classic argument that FSD is a scam because consumers don’t understand what they’re buying falls apart when FSD is a no contract subscription service.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by dghlsakjg on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:40PM (#36182550)
Does the car fully self drive, or does it require human supervision by a licensed driver in a particular seat?

Sounds like FSD doesn’t actually FSD.

In other words, you know what you’re buying is not what’s advertised so it isn’t a scam?

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by judge2020 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:46PM (#36182586)
The argument is that you know what you're buying, full stop. It doesn't matter what's being advertised, unless you intend to sue for false advertising, in which your best bet is to lie the whole time and say that you based your purchase entirely off of the advertising.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by valine on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:57PM (#36182653)
You can imagine my shock every time the steering wheel nag goes off. You’d think I’d learn by now.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by o1y32 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:30PM (#36182493)
Exactly.

I have learned that there is no point trying to tell a Tesla fanboy what the problem is. They will not listen. In the nytimes article, a guy bought another Tesla right after the previous one was totalled because of an FSD error.

The thing I have been telling myself is that fortunately I am not risking my own life for that.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by valine on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:45PM (#36182584)
Is this the article you’re talking about? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/magazine/tesla-autopilot-...

The “totaled car” was a 2015 Model S which would have been running MobilEye software, not FSD. Stirring up hysteria is a classic tactic that news sites use to generate revenue. Always look at the title of the page. When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by throwaway2037 on Sunday June 04, 2023 @08:47AM (#36185200)

    When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article.
This is the first time I have seen such an accusation on HN about the quality of NYTM vs NYT. To me, NYTM is just longer form -- a bit more story telling.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by sidibe on Saturday June 03, 2023 @11:59PM (#36182969)
The Tesla Stanley video perfectly sums up my experience discussing FSD with big fans.

https://youtu.be/4r-kUtLShJo

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by Veserv on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:56PM (#36181688)
Probably, since you do not know the operational characteristics of the safety-critical device you are operating. It is a safety-critical device with known safety defects that is incomplete and that rejects defining any operational domain where it can operate safely. It literally does not define any way it can be used safely by a general consumer or the limits of its safe operation unlike say a chainsaw or a gun where there is a safety manual which defines the ways it can be operated safely by a user. This is acceptable when tested by a trained operator who is in direct contact with the designers and is made aware of the specific operational characteristics of the device, but not when operated by a untrained consumer. The product is literally, explicitly unfit for any use as it is a safety-critical product.

I guess you might not be getting scammed if you know it is unfit for any purpose, but at the very least you are being a danger to society for using a explicitly unsafe product that can not be operated safely.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by infoseek12 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @08:02PM (#36181715)
It isn’t as though there isn’t an internal and governmental testing process in place to ensure a reasonable level of safety.

I suppose what you’re saying is true, in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by jorvi on Saturday June 03, 2023 @09:29PM (#36182145)
> in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe.

If an IDE on your laptop malfunctions, you end up with a crash or some malformed data.

If self-driving fails, you end up barreling down the road in a 2 tonne deathbox, likely killing you or someone else.

Not equivalent in the slightest.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by belltaco on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:26PM (#36182471)
Yet that is what humans are allowed to do every day and kill people.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by infoseek12 on Sunday June 04, 2023 @12:24AM (#36183088)
Software powers more than just your IDE, even cars that don’t drive themselves depend on computer code. So it is in fact exactly equivalent.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by ClumsyPilot on Sunday June 04, 2023 @04:45AM (#36184079)
Do you think average website and an aircraft autopilot are written in the same programming language and to the same level of quality?
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by infoseek12 on Sunday June 04, 2023 @07:06PM (#36190407)
No, I think code like what is used to for Tesla’s Autopilot is written to a much higher quality and highly tested. That is in fact my entire point.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by judge2020 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @10:55PM (#36182641)
It is only unsafe if the human operator lets it continue in unsafe situations. In a situation where it is taking a right turn at a red light, the only safety issue here would be the possibility of cosmic rays flipping enough bits in such a way that causes the software to instantly trigger full torque into another car, say a 1964 convertible mustang for maximum chance of fatally injuring the other humans.

By your own argument all adaptive cruise control is unsafe. Maybe you think the manual and warnings given to the consumer qualify "defining any operational domain where it can operate safely", but it doesn't give an exhaustive list of "here's where you can safely operate this", it just says to not use it when it's unsafe to do so - it's always "drive safely and take control when necessary" because the scenarios are literally infinite.

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by ClumsyPilot on Sunday June 04, 2023 @04:41AM (#36184066)
> I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed?

I get enjoyment from my heroin too, so scam is the wrong word.

But a crime is commited in both cases

Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by smt88 on Sunday June 04, 2023 @08:36AM (#36185141)
I don't think you're being scammed, but it's not fair that you're beta testing software that could kill me and I have no say in it and don't get paid anything. I shouldn't have to die because idiots trust Tesla marketing lies about safety.
Re:The death of self-driving cars is greatly exaggerated by paulddraper on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:28PM (#36181523)
Not necessarily, but in this case