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Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Thursday June 01, 2023 @10:03PM (#36159970)
Wanting to have control over the vehicle is not some "gearhead forum" thing at all. I barely care about cars and I still care about this.

I'm the driver, I should be in control and there's literally no need to justify it any further. Anything that forcibly takes away control is automatically wrong from a basic human dignity perspective. I couldn't care less what governments or insurers think, I'm the goddamn human and I should have total control over this machine. I'm driving, not being driven.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by AlotOfReading on Friday June 02, 2023 @12:17AM (#36160982)
I'm baffled by this comment. For one thing, this is literally not how vehicle regulation has worked in any western country for at least half a century, probably longer. There are already legally mandated systems that take away driver control in certain circumstances, notably ABS.

For another, the NPRM being discussed assumes that essentially 100% of new vehicles will eventually come with AEB systems in the near future. The proposed rulemaking is just formalizing that situation and setting performance standards.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by mouse_ on Friday June 02, 2023 @01:11AM (#36161269)
ABS does what I tell it I want to do, giving me greater control of the vehicle. When I press the brake all the way down, it means I want to stop as fast as possible, which I can't easily do without ABS. AEB does whatever it wants, without any input from me, leading to "surprises". ABS is user engaged, AEB takes control away from the user. Stop being disingenuous.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @01:29AM (#36161374)
Huh? ABS doesn't take away my control, it improves my control by preventing conditions that would reduce traction. This system is always engaged by brake pedal input from my foot. It's not something that cars just do out of nowhere.

The emergency braking system will automatically stop the car without your input whenever it wants. Judging from this thread, that could be due to anything. False positives have been reported. People should absolutely be able to turn this thing off if they don't trust it.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by AlotOfReading on Friday June 02, 2023 @01:53AM (#36161548)
ABS improves your control in normal circumstances. There are (uncommon) circumstances where it will actually harm your ability to handle the vehicle, same as other mandatory systems like ECS and optional safety features like traction control. Some vehicles have ways to disable some or all of these safety features for control purposes.

The proposed rules include false activation tests, monitoring/reporting of unnecessary braking, and NHTSA retains the ability to order recalls if false activations are unreasonably common. It also includes a request for comment on whether manual disablement should be allowed at high speeds. Feel free to submit one if you feel strongly about it.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:30AM (#36164798)
Can you elaborate on that? Everything I've read about the ABS technology suggests it always improves steering and almost always reduces braking distance. Exceptions include surfaces like snow and gravel where it actually increases braking distances. If there's more to it than this, I could change my opinion on the matter: might be wise to have the option to disable in some situations.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by i_am_jl on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:12AM (#36165340)
> might be wise to have the option to disable in some situations

Snow and gravel are the only valid situations where ABS can increase braking distance.

However, disabling ABS is still a really poor idea.

ABS increases braking distance in the snow because it allows the wheels to rotate so they can grip the road. ABS allowing your front wheels to rotate is why you have any marginal ability to steer and brake simultaneously. Without ABS in the snow your front wheels will lock while steering before your rears and you will lose control of the vehicle.

On top of that, disabling ABS usually disables the vehicle's entire suite of driver aids like traction control and stability control which are extremely helpful in snow.

I can't think of any situation, however contrived, where I would willingly disable ABS on a vehicle in snowy conditions... unless you were trying to slide a car around.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:43PM (#36173214)
I agree with you. I can't think of any situation I'd want to disable those systems either.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by AlotOfReading on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:31AM (#36165604)
Also wet conditions, and worn concrete, etc. Worse, the control systems behind ABS systems are not equally effective at all speeds either, and typically have regimes where they introduce significant amounts of yaw oscillation during maneuvers. That's not good for the panicking driver and can result in them being unable to control the vehicle as effectively.

Note that these are all very niche concerns and I think ABS is a fantastic safety feature, but it's still a compromise to improve the averages. This is true of virtually all safety technology.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by shortcake27 on Friday June 02, 2023 @03:54AM (#36162365)
> People should absolutely be able to turn this thing off if they don't trust it.

Absolutely not. There are other people on the road. Families. You don’t get to kill other people in a preventable accident because you believe you’re an above-average human who can outperform a computer.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by PM_me_your_math on Friday June 02, 2023 @07:17AM (#36163681)
Computer errors have killed entire families.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by Timon3 on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:27AM (#36164180)
Human errors have killed many, many, many more.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by o_1 on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:53AM (#36164428)
It should be optional period. You want to save lives how about disable stolen cars, so joy ride Kias dont kill pregnant mothers. Imagine emergency braking a F-350 with a gooseneck and two tractors on it. Does not end well.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by Timon3 on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:08AM (#36166178)
What if it being optional increases death statistics massively? Should we really be ideologically driven instead of relying on data and measurable effects?
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:40PM (#36173200)
What if free will leads to wars, crimes, deaths? Surely the world would be safer if we sacrificed our humanity for security!
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by Timon3 on Saturday June 03, 2023 @02:49AM (#36174337)
We can easily pass a law requiring AEB in new cars. Can you explain the mechanism that would allow legislating free will? Or were you just looking for any counter example, no matter if it makes the least bit sense?
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Saturday June 03, 2023 @08:26PM (#36181837)
You think statistics override basic principles of human dignity. I'm merely exposing your argument for the absurdity it is.

> What if it being optional increases death statistics massively?

What else would you like to make mandatory to satisfy your death reduction statistics, I wonder? Vaccines?

Let's just go all the way: you're talking about eliminating human agency, autonomy and free will. You want to replace it with decisions made by committee with optimized outcomes and make them mandatory with force of law.

> Should we really be ideologically driven instead of relying on data and measurable effects?

Yes. Do you not have principles, values you won't compromise on?

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by Timon3 on Sunday June 04, 2023 @06:45AM (#36184561)
I'm definitely not ready to sacrifice my fellow humans on the altar of my own conviction. But hey, you do you!
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:14AM (#36164614)
I literally couldn't care less how well the computer performs. I'm the human, it's my vehicle, I'm driving and I should have total command over the machine. I refuse to be dehumanized into some well-controlled variable in the name of so-called safety.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by colpabar on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:40AM (#36164906)
Think of the children?
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by i_am_jl on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:56AM (#36165127)
For what it's worth, I think you're misunderstanding the sentiment here.

The argument isn't that a human is better at avoiding accidents than an automated system, the argument is that, as an average human, I'm good enough and the marginal difference isn't worth the complexity and risk that the system introduces.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by ClassyJacket on Friday June 02, 2023 @12:58AM (#36161207)
I strongly disagree. You are not the only person on the road, you are creating risk for other drivers and pedestrians every time you drive.

Vehicle regulation should be based on the overall safest option, not 'dignity' or freedom or individualism anything like that.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @01:20AM (#36161328)
So what? If that's the price to pay to maintain control, fine.

These precedents are also creating risk by the way. It hasn't been that long ago since news was posted here of security researchers remotely cutting off car engines or cars repossessing themselves if you don't pay on time. That's the sort of existential risk you're paving the way for by accepting "safety" in exchange for control. It's not really your car anymore, it's the government's car, the insurer's car. What other policies would they like to set, I wonder?

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by regularjack on Friday June 02, 2023 @07:53AM (#36163918)
Right, it's a slippery slope. Today they're making your car save lives, tomorrow they'll be draining your bank accounts and seducing your significant others.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:41AM (#36164301)
The examples I cited were not hypothetical. The "tomorrow" you dismiss as some unrealistic joke is already here. Search HN for the news if you don't believe it.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by peteradio on Friday June 02, 2023 @01:44PM (#36168355)
How many lives makes it worth it? Just one? Should it make an appreciable difference? I am hesitant to hand the reigns of society to safety nazi bean counters who are more interested in appearing to "do sometihng" than actually improving our lives.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by darkerside on Friday June 02, 2023 @08:14AM (#36164082)
Beware false dichotomies
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by eimrine on Friday June 02, 2023 @06:33AM (#36163407)
> You are not the only person on the road, you are creating risk for other drivers and pedestrians every time you drive.

Aren't you notice, my dear safety fan, that the thing you are propagating is effectively adding one more person/actor on the road - a programmer of potentially buggy software, totally not FOSS and without any responsibility for any possible outcomes of possible bugs?

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by sebzim4500 on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:08AM (#36164559)
Which is why it should be monitored to ensure that the net result of the rollout is a reduction in accidents/fatalities/injuries/etc.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by eimrine on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:29AM (#36164786)
Your comment is very hard to disagree. But how are you going to test if there might be some interference of two changes? For example, negative effect from screen/touchscreen and positive from auto-breaking - isn't your next proposal to gather more information including video of driver's moves? I have a strong feel that an argument that the drivers must be video-streaming while moving will be equally hard to disagree.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by sebzim4500 on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:53AM (#36165921)
Why should drivers be video streaming? I'm just suggesting that regulators should compare accident rates of cars with and without automated breaking. I'm not saying we should spy on anybody, surely regulators already get this data.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by eimrine on Friday June 02, 2023 @12:54PM (#36167624)
> Why should drivers be video streaming?

Because nobody has drawn a red line and Ron Jones in 1967 has shown us how vulnerable our freedom is.

We already has a lot of mandatory non-FOSS software in cars which use to phone home which effectively is a streaming (not a video yet, but amount of data is never decreasing). And a lot of so-called safety (surveillance in reality) devices are around us nowadays - phones exposing a lot of uncertain data about us, bank cards which allows banks know where we are right now, etc. If some crackpot politician proves to safety-demanding influencers that video streaming from every moving car helps us to prevent $bad_things_list so that kind of demand is totally possible, especially if using cars for mass killings would become more common than mass shootings.

> I'm just suggesting that regulators should compare accident rates of cars with and without automated breaking.

It's impossible because you have not 100% of the data.

Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by xnx on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:00AM (#36166055)
This is a fine attitude for a closed course racetrack, but not appropriate on public roads given natural and universal fallibility.
Re:Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds... by matheusmoreira on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:06PM (#36173316)
Fallibility is not a valid reason to remove control from humans. A human should always have command over the vehicle, no matter what. You could argue that some humans shouldn't be driving cars at all and I'd agree.