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Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by mellosouls on Thursday June 01, 2023 @11:07AM (#36152127)
you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each.

The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here.

If you mean throughout their life rather than concurrently, that doesn't really affect the idea that marriage itself is of special significance.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @11:42AM (#36152745)
> The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here.

How much of that is social expectation? I can see the circular reasoning here: can I get out?

That is a challenge. Social expectations set boundaries: changing those boundaries takes a lot of work. It's still possible, though. To me, it's worth the effort.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by medo-bear on Thursday June 01, 2023 @01:00PM (#36154033)
there are plenty of societal pressures against family life. and societal expectations are against faith and trust in the other person
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @01:54PM (#36154836)
> societal expectations are against faith and trust in the other person

That implies a need for faith and trust in a person. Where does is that need come from? Committed romance.

If that isn't my goal, what do I have to fear?

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by medo-bear on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:03PM (#36155812)
i believe that need is an intrinsicaly human need
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:24PM (#36156097)
And I don't. Have you considered my position, or did you just want to express your own?
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by medo-bear on Thursday June 01, 2023 @05:42PM (#36157766)
hard to argue with a guy who thinks he is socrates
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @06:10PM (#36158096)
Because you don't have an argument of your own?

I'm not here to belittle you personally. I'm here to confront your ideas.

What are you here for?

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by stuckinhell on Friday June 02, 2023 @10:15AM (#36165387)
You are probably correct, watching what people DO rather that what they SAY. Just look how fast America went from conservative christianity to flying Pride Flags over the the American Flag.

It's clear there is no separation between church and state. People just debate the religion of the "church".

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by medo-bear on Friday June 02, 2023 @11:27AM (#36166448)
i am not sure if we are talking about the same thing so i want to say that i strongly believe family relationships precede religion. i am from eastern europe and i think people had better family lives during socialism then they do now, which is ironic given the very strict seperation of church and state
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by philwelch on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:02PM (#36155802)
> How much of that is social expectation?

Yes, we can change social expectations and boundaries. We did change social expectations and boundaries. It was called the "Sexual Revolution" and it happened over half a century ago. It's old news. This is where we've ended up since then.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:22PM (#36156081)
I'm still trying to find the waves of that revolution. Maybe I just need to get the fuck out of Utah...

I could really use an aftershock.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by valianteffort on Thursday June 01, 2023 @06:28PM (#36158288)
It sounds like you're more of a sex pest that places far too much significance on the act rather than the relationship before it.
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @10:53PM (#36160291)
Because I have a different perspective than you, I am a pest.

This is precisely the issue at hand.

I'm not pestering you for sex; in fact I am not pestering anyone at all! Yet here you are pestering me for expressing an interest in it.

--

Am I a pest for leaving the Mormon Church? Am I a pest for drinking alcohol at home?

Whatever happened to the religious freedom y'all keep telling me about? Can I have some?

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by valianteffort on Thursday June 01, 2023 @11:24PM (#36160538)
> Am I a pest for leaving the Mormon Church

No but there does seem to be a strong correlation between people who were raised in strict religious households and a strong predilection towards sex. I kind of already assumed that you were ex-religious before you said so.

You are free to believe and do whatever you like, but don't presume that everyone else is a prude because they don't look at sex the way you do. Or that your perspective should be the norm. People overwhelmingly choose and hope for monogomy despite society largely accepting casual sexual encounters as "normal". There's no telling the extent of the damage that has done to people's ability to pair bond successfully and develop interpersonal relationships.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Friday June 02, 2023 @12:05AM (#36160899)
> You are free to believe and do whatever you like, but don't presume that everyone else is a prude because they don't look at sex the way you do.

I won't. I'll assume they are a prude when they call me a "sex pest".

> Or that your perspective should be the norm.

I just have to accept the inverse. Got it.

--

> People overwhelmingly choose and hope for monogomy despite society largely accepting casual sexual encounters as "normal".

I would like to live in that society please. Oh right, you want to vilify it because casual sex offends you; and you are not alone, which is precisely the source of my troubles.

I have plenty of deep and fulfilling interpersonal relationships. I'm quite good at that, as it happens.

--

What the fuck do you want from me? Do you want me to pretend I actually crave committed monogamy? Wouldn't that make me the actual pest?

That doesn't sound any different from asking my trans friends to pretend they are cis or my gay friends pretend they are hetero.

I would much rather be honest. Unfortunately, this social situation you are holding over my head is making it a lot easier to just stay silent. Thanks for that.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by rayiner on Thursday June 01, 2023 @09:06PM (#36159554)
Utah is like the most successful place in the country now. In 500 years, the country will be Latinos, Muslims, and Mormons.
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by canjobear on Friday June 02, 2023 @12:29AM (#36161076)
Don't forget the Mennonites.
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by bradlys on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:24PM (#36156096)
Yep. We changed social expectations and allowed women to choose partners fully based on whatever they deemed attractive rather than coerce them into marriages they didn’t want. (Either initially or ever)

Straight women’s sexuality is drastically different from gay men, lesbian women, and straight men. It’s not much of anything like the rest. There’s a desire for the attention and approval of straight men (probably due to patriarchal reasons) but there’s often a missing desire for the straight men as they are. (I assume this is more biological) It’s why we see so many straight women being completely content with living an asexual lifestyle whereas straight men are completely miserable.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:57PM (#36156529)
I know plenty of straight women who are not content living their asexual lifestyle.

My theory is that this dynamic is mostly narrative-based, but partly physical:

Our social narrative says that a man's sexuality is dangerous, and that a woman's sexuality is fragile. It also says that safety comes from commitment.

The physical difference (that applies to sexual intercourse) between cis men and cis women is genitalia. The penis is homologous to the clitoris, and the vagina is homologous to the prostate. When a cis man has sex, he probably uses his penis, but when a cis woman has sex, she probably uses her vagina.

Most people who have mastered prostate stimulation can tell you it requires a completely different mental approach (headspace) than penis stimulation. This rules out most cis men, to whom the prostate is usually on a spectrum from unfamiliar to taboo: that gives queer/gay/trans people kind of opportunity advantage.

The headspace I'm talking about here is more of a yearning for connection (to connect with the prostate/vagina), as opposed to feeling impressed with and excited by someone's figure (to connect with the penis/clitoris).

The feeling of safety and commitment that can be found in a monogamous relationship is a really effective way to get into that headspace. This means that the utility of a committed romance can be directly applied to a cis woman's sexual experience, in the same way porn can be applied to a cis man's experience. This is where goals can be misaligned categorically along the boundary of sex.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by uoaei on Thursday June 01, 2023 @11:12AM (#36152232)
You'd be surprised what happens when you are kind and a good communicator with a healthy social life. I thought the same thing when I was younger but now I'm in the prime of my dating and casual sex life. I try not to hold tightly to expectations but can see this path in life leading to some new close friendships with the possibility of closer partnerships ahead.

The trick is to prioritize the people around you, rather than material gains for yourself.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by vorpalhex on Thursday June 01, 2023 @11:51AM (#36152889)
> can see this path in life leading to some new close friendships with the possibility of closer partnerships ahead.

Just a few more pulls and the big payout will come. You've spent so many quarters on the slot machine, it'll definitely pay out at any moment.

> thought the same thing when I was younger but now I'm in the prime of my dating and casual sex life.

I had a very charismatic friend who ended up in this situation of being a sex partner to 4-5 very attractive women in this sort of poly relationship thing.

Just like the first time you go to the bar and it's full of alcohol and people, it was fun. Genuinely good looking women and he just had to have sex or sometimes fun adventures with them. None of the "gunk" of relationships, none of the work.

Well that fun doesn't last very long. Pandemic happened, everyone isolated and went to their "nesting" mate and uh.. it wasn't him. He wasn't anyone's #1. He was just a convenient sex toy who bought dinner.

He still isn't anyone's #1.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @12:17PM (#36153347)
> Just a few more pulls and the big payout will come. You've spent so many quarters on the slot machine, it'll definitely pay out at any moment.

You sound like someone who has won at gambling.

Your success is not the only possible or valid path.

What you have shared may be wise advice, but advice itself is never a guarantee.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by uoaei on Thursday June 01, 2023 @12:25PM (#36153468)
The age-old adage "luck is preparation plus opportunity" is relevant here.

I decided a while ago to be better at being with people, and started preparing myself toward that goal. It's taken a while but I'm doing well now. Also I've set myself up for success by living in a place that attracts and fosters the kinds of folks I like to spend time with -- this is really super important, people aren't the same everywhere you go. Then as summer began coming on this year and people seem to have dropped all those pandemic-time idiosyncracies I've been giving myself ample opportunity to mix with extended friend groups and random meetups (mostly bike rides and races in my case) to great benefit for everyone involved.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @02:21PM (#36155174)
My point is that I'm not worried about winning or losing the lottery. I'm not playing. I'm not missing out, either.

The expectation is that I'm filling a void with casual relationships; and that that void is a single committed romance.

I never had that void to begin with. I sincerely am fulfilled by uncommitted relationships. They aren't casual to me: they are as serious and meaningful to me as monogamous partnership is to my parents.

The most important part to me is empathy. I crave new ideas and perspectives: I get them by empathizing with more people.

Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by uoaei on Thursday June 01, 2023 @03:31PM (#36156177)
The way the previous comment came across to me was as from a cynical incel type rather than a more reasoned MGTOW-adjacent approach, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by thomastjeffery on Thursday June 01, 2023 @04:42PM (#36157045)
This is the failure of threads: we section ourselves off into pairs, but each of us is still listening to the room.
Re:What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life? by uoaei on Thursday June 01, 2023 @02:15PM (#36155099)
Casual sex can mean multiple things, I suppose, from one-night-stands to consistent fuck-buddies/FWB situations. I tend toward the latter, because I'm picky and it's hard for me to get involved with someone I don't have a deeper connection with.