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Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by jxf on Sunday May 28, 2023 @06:03AM (#36102669)
> For all its technological whizzyness, the system has downsides. Cost is one. Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates are higher).

Great article but I'm really curious about this number. If the alternative to raising the barrier is "the entire city floods" then that... seems like a pretty good trade? Also, nobody talks about the cost of raising and lowering a drawbridge. The whole point of it is to be raised or lowered, just like the barrier.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by LaurensBER on Sunday May 28, 2023 @06:09AM (#36102702)
The issue is not the cost at the moment. The real issue is, what are we going to do in 50 years?

Invest even more money to buy another 10-50 years or will we have to admit defeat? If there's even a chance of admitting defeat that will be felt in property prices and investments a lot sooner than those 50 years.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by ta1243 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:01AM (#36102976)
Venice is a small city compared to Jakarta, and they're moving Jakarta. However I'm not sure if they will succeed in their plans with Jakarta, sure the big companies will move, but moving a city is not a trivial thing to do.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by rippercushions on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:06AM (#36103000)
They're building a showcase city a thousand kilometers away in a different island as the new capital, but they're not relocating the 20+ million who live in Jakarta.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by tough on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:41AM (#36103180)
If they relocate the govt and companies paying salaries to those 20M, won't they also move there?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by seanmcdirmid on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:13AM (#36103346)
They are relocating the government. The private companies weren’t invited. This is like how Burma moved its capital from Rangoon to Nay Pyi Taw, Rangoon is still the commercial capital if Burma.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by jcranmer on Sunday May 28, 2023 @10:29AM (#36104277)
The other examples I would reach for are Côte d'Ivoire moving its capital from Abidjan to Yamoussoukro in 1983, or Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991. In both cases, the old capital is still far and away the largest city in the country, like 10× the new capital city.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by ta1243 on Monday May 29, 2023 @06:22AM (#36112503)
> Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991

By comparison, since 2020 the Lagos population grew by more than the entire population of Abuja.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by 627467 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:12AM (#36103334)
That's it: 20 million helpless people are going to move like sheep because shepherds are moving to another place.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by paavope on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:15AM (#36103355)
I’m sure some will move, but that number is going to be closer to 0 than 20M
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by inawarminister on Sunday May 28, 2023 @10:29AM (#36104282)
Jakartan here, will never move even if the whole city get flooded (more than it has been). I'll probably get a houseboat and settle down.

More realistically, Northern Jakarta is sinking, but the Southern part (and the suburbs/exurbs in the surrounding area) are still going to be okay and Jabodetabek will still be home to millions.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by frankfrankfrank on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:07AM (#36103002)
In another 50 years the condition of Venice will be a footnote in the ledger of systemic problems that bring everything to a halt.

The system, the organism or ecosystem of European civilization world wide is rotting and collapsing right before our very eyes. We are witness to the Technology Age Collapse, whether people can or want to see it or not. That will have consequences for everything and everyone, including Venice.

AI cannot create any of the things that formed the European civilization that produced and maintained everything we all have, like computers, electricity, communications, transportation, flight, etc. AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture, let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by jasonwatkinspdx on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:41AM (#36103177)
Uhm, all of the technologies you mention were developed by a web of humans far larger and more diverse than "European civilization." This reads very poorly.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by 11235813213455 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:49AM (#36103218)
> let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems

not just technologies, but policies, education, mindsets. The goal is to make people switch from a high environmental impact to a low one. You don't need much technologies to get a bicycle rather than a heavy hence polluting vehicle. The situation we are now is just the result of many many smaller ones

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by alpaca128 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:58AM (#36103257)
> AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture

I have yet to see evidence that this kind of assertion will age any better than the famous 64kB quote. True, AI can't create masterpieces today, but claiming it will never match humans feels more like emotional wishful thinking.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by gattilorenz on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:06AM (#36103299)
You meant Bill Gates’ 640KB, or is this related to the Commodore 64?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by shjake on Sunday May 28, 2023 @10:03AM (#36104071)
a ‘masterpiece’ is a very subjective term. Most are viewed as such not because of some objectively measurable quality but because of their uniqueness/originality (at the time) and context. In that regard it’s hard to imagine AI could achieve that until it became very good at imitating humans.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by wahnfrieden on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:58PM (#36105764)
claiming it will match humans feels more like emotional wishful thinking
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by vidarh on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:13PM (#36105887)
It's basically a religious argument that realistically can only hold if there is something in the brain which violates known physics and allows for a category of computation that isn't just different, but different enough to be impossible to emulate within known physics.

Otherwise the brain can't compute anything a computer can't (eventually) emulate.

Maybe it's possible - as an atheist I find that near impossible to imagine, but I won't entirely dismiss the possibility, but I doubt it.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by arp242 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:28AM (#36103418)
Does anyone else miss the days where we could browse HN comments without some tangent about AI on every fucking story?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by goodpoint on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:22AM (#36103087)
> property prices and investments

Most of the value of Venice is cultural and it's not measured with money.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by ivanhoe on Sunday May 28, 2023 @07:38AM (#36103167)
Well, for people living there it's how they pay their bills, so for them it's very practical economical problem. And not just them, the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism, and Venice is their main attraction, so they all heavily depend on it. Even here in Istria (Croatia) many people live from organizing boat tours to Venice, so the economical impact of these changes goes even beyond just Italy.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by pydry on Sunday May 28, 2023 @10:54AM (#36104502)
I visited once and stayed well away from the center. It didnt look like anyone much actually did live there - which makes sense, if you owned an apartment it seems you were better off renting it to tourists and moving to mestre.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by goodpoint on Sunday May 28, 2023 @12:54PM (#36105735)
Tourism is a completely different thing from the market value of the home you live in.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by toyg on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:39PM (#36106097)
> the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism

This has.not been true for more than 30 years. Veneto is the heartland of the original Benetton, a heavily industrialised region, the engine of the Italian North-East economic mini-boom of the 80s/90s (based on low-cost manufacturing). In fact, there is a massive duality between the tourism industry in Venice and the economy of the mainland, which is markedly reflected in politics (Venice tends to elect leftist mayors, while Veneto as a whole is very rightwing).

Losing the tourism industry would definitely be a blow to the economy, but Veneto would survive economically just fine.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by suprjami on Sunday May 28, 2023 @06:20AM (#36102770)
Most likely a drawbridge doesn't average out to half a million euros each raise, like the figure quoted later in the article.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by orthoxerox on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:06AM (#36103305)
> Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates are higher).

Why not raise the barrier permanently, then? Build a lock for the ships going to Marghera, reroute the sewage and runoff to the sea outside the barrier.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by twelve40 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:24AM (#36103402)
> reroute the sewage

can this be done across a bunch of islands and canals with tightly clustered ancient buildings? i don't think they even have a central sewer

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by gryzzly on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:12AM (#36103338)
the article talks about this – it’s a major ecological concern as it‘d turn the lagoon into standing water, and Venice is already notorious in polluting the lagoon.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by arp242 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:22AM (#36103389)
But reroute the sewage would solve that, no? That won't be cheap or easy, but neither is this barrier.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by twelve40 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:27AM (#36103413)
i think sewage is only a part of the problem, even without sewage standing water may turn into a giant swamp or a salt pond
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by asah on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:24AM (#36103399)
...or continuously circulate the water?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by rufasterisco on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:10PM (#36107305)
The debate around preserving Venice's lagoon as a body of water linked to the open sea has been ongoing for centuries. A public authority to oversee these issues, the Magistrato alle Acque [1], was established in 1501, and large-scale public works were mandated around the same time (i.e., rerouting rivers to prevent the lagoon from silting up).

The reasons for this have evolved over time. It began to protect waterways that enabled local commerce, and expanded alongside Venice's dominance across the Mediterranean Sea. This led to the identity of a city that celebrated its "Wedding of the Sea" every year [2].

As a modern-day example of this, UNESCO has enlisted `Venice and its Lagoon` in its World Heritage list [3], stating:

``` Criterion (v): In the Mediterranean area, the lagoon of Venice represents an outstanding example of a semi-lacustral habitat which has become vulnerable as a result of irreversible natural and climate changes. In this coherent ecosystem where the muddy shelves (alternately above and below water level) are as important as the islands, pile-dwellings, fishing villages and rice-fields need to be protected no less than the palazzi and churches. ```

In the present day, when Venice is mainly seen as a tourist attraction, it's easy to underestimate this. However, locals still draw a firm line between those who live in the city and the "campagnoli" (people from the countryside). Any plan to sever this historical link between Venice and the sea would be a tough sell, regardless of its economic or technical feasibility.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrato_alle_acque [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_the_Sea_ceremony [3] https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/394/

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by dagw on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:11AM (#36103329)
Also, nobody talks about the cost of raising and lowering a drawbridge.

Worked at a civil engineering company that worked on a major drawbridge project. Minimising the number of times it needed to be opened/closed was a major concern and huge point of contention.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by asah on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:23AM (#36103394)
due to power or blocking traffic? I believe OP was strictly referring to power consumption...
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by kaydub on Sunday May 28, 2023 @09:51AM (#36103984)
I assumed it was due to the height of the ships that typically passed. Probably costs more to build the bridge higher so you don't have to raise it as often, so they fight about lowering costs and minimize the number of times they raise the bridge.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by SoftTalker on Sunday May 28, 2023 @01:07PM (#36105842)
Power consumption to open a drawbridge should not be extraordinary. The bridge leaves/moveable sections are counterbalanced.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by dagw on Sunday May 28, 2023 @04:34PM (#36107500)
Traffic mainly, but also maintenance. Mechanisms needed to be inspected/serviced every N openings. Although the big fight was basically that 'Team Road' wanted the bridge to open twice a day at fixed times and if a boat missed its slot it just had to wait, while 'Team River' wanted the bridge to open within 10 minutes of any boat showing up.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by rcme on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:13AM (#36103344)
Wouldn’t it be much more cost effective to move for most people?
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by arp242 on Sunday May 28, 2023 @08:24AM (#36103396)
Yes, but it's really about protecting the old historic city, rather than the people.
Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by FriedPickles on Sunday May 28, 2023 @11:13AM (#36104714)
Perhaps they could lower the total cost if they recaptured compressed air as seawater reenters the gates during the sinking process.

There are unavoidable losses to heat, but if they did this it wouldn't be too different from "deep sea pumped storage" concepts.

Re:Venetians are pondering raising their entire city by jaclaz on Monday May 29, 2023 @04:17AM (#36111861)
There would be the need of huge (leakproof) containers for the compressed air recovered, from a back of the envelope calculation, we are talking of 100,000-150,000 cubic meters of compressed air.