I answered that unlike what you are trying to accuse me of, I think there is nothing wrong with eating fish, the problem is inability to do anything else of significance but eat fish, talking about the dietary preferences is a diversion, so can we put that to rest already?
> What about what you said makes them unintelligent?
Can you please point me to cultural, scientific, technological, architectural, philosophical achievements of orcas that are typically associated with human-level intellect?
All moot if we are in The Matrix already? If not, The Matrix is the end game, anyway? I wouldn't mind much as long as chicken tastes better than fish.
Also i wasn't aware how much culture and collaboration orcas apparently have, thank you for sharing all that!
Edit: also, curious if you are aware of the work of marija gimbutas and heide göttner-abendroth on neolithic pre-patriarchal Europe (which seems to have been peaceful for thousands of years)?
* Deep Thinkers: Inside the Minds of Whales, Dolphins, and Porpoises by Janet Mann
* The Cultural Lives of Whales and Dolphins by Hal Whitehead and Luke Rendell
Whales in general are very fascinating in their social and emotional intelligences. Orcas just take their raw intelligence to a new level.
Also, I am not aware of that work. So thank you! I have been meaning to read Against the Grain by James C. Scott. He mentions that early agrian societies had less leisure time and were less healthy than their hunter gatherer counterparts.
This is also described in high detail in "The Dawn of Everything" by another anarchist David Graeber. Highly recommend.
Evolution doesn't generally add features that aren't needed. Orcas don't have arms, don't build skyscrapers or fly to the moon. There's no need to be that bright.
But if you want to believe that they could, if they just had had arms, well why not (although I dissent).
> Humans are also some of the most if not the most violent species to ever exist. Which is more intelligent?
Those are two different dimensions. Being intelligent doesn't mean you're kind hearted or less violent. Although it can indeed be simpler to understand others (which you can use in evil ways).
I don't really see how you can claim that. What don't you see?
But, you also sort of prove my point as well. An 8 year old is as intelligent as an adult human. It isn't as knowledgeable or socially developed but the brain is basically 95% complete in its growth by 8 years old or so.
Part of the mistake is confusing knowledge or societal integration with intelligence.
> Evolution doesn't generally add features that aren't needed. Orcas don't have arms, don't build skyscrapers or fly to the moon. There's no need to be that bright.
But orcas do require intelligence. Their prey are dolphins, tuna, blue whales, humpback whales, beluga whales, seals, rays, salmon, herring, sharks, etc. Their prey are fast and strong and several of them (i.e., the mammals) have excellent hearing, sight, and intelligence of their own. They need their intelligence to cooperate in their hunting and to teach the learned techniques. And again, there are several indications and observations that their social and emotional intelligence is greater than humans. Orcas are currently considered a single species and thus that single species and brain provides for a huge variance in prey and living environments.
Ancient human brains and intelligence are identical to modern human brains and intelligence, and they had no need or capability for skyscrapers or going to the moon. Because again, technological development doesn't necessarily relate to intelligence. Technological development of humans is a bit of evolutionary runaway process because of our dexterity and brain combination. But just because we have a lot of technology doesn't mean we are the most intelligent. It is quite clear that our technogical development exceeds our social and emotional intelligence's ability to keep up.
> Those are two different dimensions. Being intelligent doesn't mean you're kind hearted or less violent.
It does indeed relate to social and emotional intelligence. Not everything is about bits and atoms.
> > I still see nothing in what you wrote that indicates they'd be brighter that say 5 to 7 years old kid
You then:
> sort of prove my point as well. An 8 year old is as intelligent as an adult
But I said not more than 5-7. (Could be 3-5 what do I know.)
which is not the same as 8.
And kids are kids, at 8 your brain is far from finished. (Maybe volume wise 95% but not IQ wise. I found 90% at age 5, volume/weight wise in a quick websearch). IQ wise: Not until a bit past 20 years.
(Where are you getting your ideas from?)
> Ancient human brains and intelligence are identical to modern human brains and intelligence
No.
You might have a link to some book that says otherwise, if so I would look at the authors as slightly dumb related to that.
> They need their intelligence to cooperate in their hunting
Dogs and hyenas do too.
I'm unlikely to reply any further. Btw, just one thing: when I was a teenager I had completely wildly crazy ideas about animals and their abilities, ... And, maybe in a way, I know where you're coming from. Have a nice day
> No.
> You might have a link to some book that says otherwise, if so I would look at the authors as slightly dumb related to that.
When I said ancient himans I meant early homo sapiens. I have looked into this before and while the brain has evolved over the time of homo sapiens, it is very much the same core brain. And from what I can tell from my research, the homo sapiens brain has been relatively unchanged since about 100,000 - 200,000 years ago, well before any writing or technological developments. Again, knowledge and technology are not requirements for intelligence.
For your kid argument, you would have to argue that the last 5-10% of brain development accounts for the majority of human intelligence. I think that's a tough hill to climb.
> I'm unlikely to reply any further. Btw, just one thing: when I was a teenager I had completely wildly crazy ideas about animals and their abilities, ... And, maybe in a way, I know where you're coming from. Have a nice day
That's fine, but it's also a rather immature and childish way to have a discussion.
I've never hard of this before! Can you explain more?