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Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by ianbicking on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:00PM (#36046250)
It feels to me like it's a coincidence of evolutionary pressures and timelines that humans evolved to a take-off level of intelligence before elephants or whales. Whales especially just haven't had the time, they are a much younger species/order than primates. If humpback whales had been contemporaneous with, say, australopithecus, who knows how things would have gone. And elephants maybe just didn't win the roll of the dice, it feels like there were some very pivotal moments of evolution where our ancestors were under tremendous pressure, where small populations and a tenuous grasp on species survival led to unique intellectual adaptations.

It would be fun to imagine a world where the Americas were just out of reach of human migration, but an elephant species on the continents developed speech and abstraction. In my mind it would be a smaller species of elephant, of which there were many, and who may have more need to take advantage of intelligence to prosper.

I also think about r- and K-selected species [1]; whether the survival of a species depends on the fitness of the individual or the fitness of the parent. Humans are incredible parents (being K-selected), and we preserve our line by preserving our children. We're physically decent I suppose, but definitely not as children. Whales are similar, with small numbers of children who require almost heroic parental effort to raise. Elephants are definitely on the same spectrum.

[1] https://www2.nau.edu/lrm22/lessons/r_and_k_selection/r_and_k...

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by FredPret on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:06PM (#36046320)
Humans are incredibly badass physically once they reach adulthood. We have endurance, immune systems, and digestive systems that seem tailor-made for world domination. (you could walk a horse to death, and that's an animal we bred for endurance)

The catch is you have to be smart to take advantage of these things.

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by TrainedMonkey on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:13PM (#36046407)
And tool usage, turns out articulated appendages with articulated grippy sausages are effective, energy efficient, and can apply both power and precision.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by kfrzcode on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:19PM (#36046485)
Maybe this is why Octopi are so efficient and smart? They forgo the hinges and just have a grippy sausage tube x 8
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by tourmalinetaco on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @02:45AM (#36054876)
Rather than grippy sausage tube, I believe the proper term would be sucky sushi rolls.

On a more serious note, it may be due to similar genetics to humans, specifically the LINE family of transposons.[0] Though, maybe they’re just aliens.[1]

[0] - https://www.livescience.com/jumping-genes-octopus-intelligen...

[1] - https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/123479-trending-science-...

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by byby on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:55PM (#36047117)
I've heard of the fact we have more endurance then the horse but walk one to death? Source? Or deeper explanation?
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by DicIfTEx on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:05PM (#36047297)
I think they're referring to humans' ability to conduct persistence hunting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by byby on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:10PM (#36047388)
I'm aware of this. We can run down a cheetah or bunny.

But we can't actually run down a horse. Only top ultra marathoners can do that.

But walking down a horse? Really?

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by hguant on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:36PM (#36047815)
Yes.

Horses are incredibly fragile, and over long distances would prefer to be moving at human walking speed.

Horses also require continuous grazing to sustain themselves, and because of how their digestive tracts work, really need time to amass energy.

It's not a question of "running down a horse." It's a question of heat exchange and endurance. Humans are incredibly efficient at maintaining homeostasis "under load." Horses are not.

If you read a histories any war/conflict where there are large numbers of horses involved, a common theme is them just dropping dead of exhaustion along the side of the trail, because they can't sustain the pace of the army marching with them.

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by byby on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:43PM (#36047927)
>If you read a histories any war/conflict where there are large numbers of horses involved, a common theme is them just dropping dead of exhaustion along the side of the trail, because they can't sustain the pace of the army marching with them.

This is assuming that most of the army were full of people walking and the horses walking along side were getting exhausted? So an average human can walk down a horse?

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by User23 on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:13PM (#36046408)
Human children, boys especially, often appear to be actively trying to get themselves maimed or killed.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by someweirdperson on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:55PM (#36047116)
That's just part of the natural selection process.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by bilsbie on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @12:22PM (#36046541)
You just can’t succeed technologically underwater. Can’t make fire. Can’t mix things, etc.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by idiotsecant on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:03PM (#36047264)
I think that 'take off' level of intelligence requires that increased intelligence lead to increased biological benefit. Those complex brains are expensive.

Since elephants aren't carnivores I don't think they would get much benefit out of the reasoning skills that enabled us to be really excellent pack hunters, which was probably why more intelligent ancestors of humans managed to out-compete the less intelligent ones.

If elephants gain abstract reasoning skills what does it get them? More efficient harvesting of bananas?

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by ftxbro on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:06PM (#36047324)
so if we want to evolve the most intelligent ai then we should make it a carnivorous pack hunter
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by swagasaurus-rex on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:38PM (#36047852)
T-800. Living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by ianbicking on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @05:13PM (#36050932)
That's why I wonder if those times of extreme pressure, when human (or human-ancestor) populations dwindled to the thousands, cause this kind of adaptation. Like it wasn't just being carnivores or whatever, but that moment of having to rediscover survival as a species.

Like maybe if the Wilson Island Mammoths [1] had just a bit easier time of it, or their populations weren't quite as small (or by luck of the dice were much smarter!) then they could have survived.

In fact it would have really helped elephants if some of them were smart enough not to be made extinct by humans! Maybe if humans had been just a little less competent, pressuring but not exterminating the wooly mammoths...

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by jiggawatts on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @07:12PM (#36052003)
I had an idle shower thought that technological restrictions might result in hyper-intelligence.

E.g.: humans could reach high technology relatively easily because our environment and physiology enables tool use, etc…

But if “takeoff” is blocked, and evolution continues, then it might still be possible for an aquatic species to overcome the limitations of their environment — but only once they’ve reached the much higher level of intelligence required to find workarounds for their miriad problems!

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by f6v on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:30PM (#36047717)
> who knows how things would have gone

There would be living ships, of course. This is a Star Maker reference.

Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by chatmasta on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @01:35PM (#36047807)
I sometimes think about how if humans were to go extinct, and some other species were to eventually develop intelligence and replace us, then there is a pair of animals walking (or swimming or flying) the earth today that would be the ancestors of that species.
Re:Elephants may be domesticating themselves by sjducb on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @11:09PM (#36053613)
Whales lack hands. It's hard to build anything without hands. Without technology intelligence isn't much use.