The really sad thing is I cannot find that old magazine any more, at best it is somewhere in my parents house in the attic in an unmarked box, at worst it got lost while moving. But yeah, that was the first time young me realized these transcriptions were not, in fact, noted down by the musicians, but done by a 3rd party whose listening and guitar playing skill differed a lot from the actual musicians and writers. I approached all other sheet music with a very high degree of caution after that "incident".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYzIksH67hA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnIHVvEwbLk

It's impressive how much a song can shift from its underlying chords and retain the same vibe.

If you make your own transcription, it may not be more accurate, but at least it will be your version of the song.

I wouldn't have done that, in though it's a massive pain I would have used the tools in the DAW to change the timing to match the song, and not the other way around.

It's in 4/4 with a 2/4 bar but it still had a lot of folks confused for a while and a whole TikTok meme that lasted for a bit.

https://melodics.com/blog/index.php/2022/10/11/a-lesson-in-c...

While I see why people say "4/4 with a 2/4 bar" -- doesn't that feel like a matter of definition?

I would just say it doesn't have a "square" pulse -- it has a pulse that's 11 or 22. To me that is the defining characteristic; that's what it sounds like.

Whether you call it 11/4 or 11/2 or "4/4 with a 2/4" bar seems to be creating a difference out of something that's not really there.

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Also nice to see The Cars "Just What I Needed" in that blog post. I remember my friend's band did a cover of it and I asked them about that "hiccup" / inversion in a pop song ... I think he said they just didn't do it ?

To me the drums have no cycle of 4, it's a "double time" beat, a cycle of 2

But I can see where people are getting the 4 from in the vocals -- there is 4-beat repetition in the vocals

But I would still say the song has a cycle of 22. That's the salient feel.

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Also a cool thing is that the "Hey Ya" background goes in 12 beats and then 10 beats. That actually supports my point. It's 22

- Drums are 11 repetitions of 2

- Background vocals are 12 + 10 -- I hear the 10 as shortened

- Main Vocals are something like 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 6 -- I actually hear the last one as lengthened, not shortened

So yeah it definitely has a polyrhythmic feel to me; calling it 4/4 and then 2/4 is imposing too much theory on reality :)

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I hear the vocals as a variation on

- 2 cycles of 12 = 24

- 6 cycles of 4 = 24

These ratios are very common for "12/8" or "12/4" polyrhythms.

But the second cycle of 12 is shortened; the last cycle of 4 is lengthened. Great song!

The map’s not the territory though

But there is a reptition of 4 in the kick, a very common beat of o . ! o . o ! .

Agreed, I would guess the concept of having a time signature is to make musical notation easy to write, and convenient for performers

But it's not necessarily reality

11/4 would probably indicate a large stress on the one and small stresses on the three, five etc

I would play them differently anyway

Great way to check is count the beats and never let yourself go up to four, and say 1 on the strong beats. Takes a few tries but you'll get to

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4

pretty quick with Hey Ya.

But when I hear the whole song together, taking all instruments into account, I hear a cycle of 22. There's a polyrhythm of 3 different tempos:

- snare is a double-time tempo -- 11 repetitions, everything is accented equally, it's driving the whole song

- main vocal riff, bass drum, and synthy bass guitar are "regular time"

(I'm a drummer and I often hear the bass and snare at different "tempos", in many types of music, i.e. one is half or double the other, or 3:1 or 3:2 -- those ratios feel the most relevant )

- Hey Ya, Hey Ha is half time -- 12 + 10

So yeah I can certainly see why if you're a drummer (and I am) you would count it one way.

But I'd say the whole song is playing with tempos -- listen to all his vocal ad libs

"and what makes, and what makes, and what makes, and what makes" -- this is double time, following the snare

"love the exception" -- regular time

"why oh why oh" -- doubling the double time

So basically I hear it as a cycle of 22, and there are various tempos and rhythms laid around it. It's a gorgeous texture, and what an achievement to make it flow naturally in a pop song

Another nice thing is that while the vocals do have the 4, 4, 4, ... structure, most of the accents are on the upbeat, following the snare more than the bass drum

I don't think that applying half-time/double-time to melodies is a good approach. Rhythm and tempo (note lengths, really) in melodies are more fluid to get more variation and effect. When I listen to the song, most of the passages that you quoted as changing up the rhythm (except "Hey ya! Hey ya!") sound to me as if they are actually consistently starting on a 1 beat if you count 4/4 and 2/4, but not in 22/4. So you'd tear apart the structure that you claim is there. That feels like a contradiction to me.

Also, why am I discussing music on Hacker News...? I'll happily agree to respectfully disagree at this point. I respect your view.

The reason it's mostly 4/4 is that the 4/4 measures sound self-contained. And then you have an abbreviated 2/4 turnaround.

So yeah, you could definitely notate it 11/4 if you want, but that would be a bit confusing to musicians used to thinking in shorter bars.

Not sure it it helps but you can use a tempo map in Reaper to basically warp the grid to your audio. In Classical and Romantic music where Tempo Rubato is pretty common this is a life-saver.

"You're off time...no you're off time. Oh, wait...we're all off time in different ways, let's get it right!"

Black metal is loads of fun to play on guitar :-)

Doesn't it start as a schoolkid, where you too fast giving a presentation up at the board?

how can you not compress time in front of others unless you're practiced?

Sounds pretty sweet.

What a great day on Hacker News.

A long time ago, back when I had a neo-no-wave group and worked as a recording engineer, we hooked up with a number of NYC folks- Friendly Bears, Toby Driver/Kayo Dot, Colin Marston’s bands…

Now that I don’t have to grind so hard bootstrapping my software career anymore, I’ve been putting together a new group.

But who cares really- just cool being able to talk music w/ HNers.

https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/lars-ulrich-hates-metallica-tra...

The notation is a starting point to learn the baseline notes and rhythms. The actual end product is never going to actually match up 100% to the written version except maybe in like middle school.

But is it worth it? You've taken away the soul of the song.

Noo whyyyyy... :( So many amateur/local bands sound so lifeless and bland on their albums, because they somehow got it into their heads that a click track should have the final say, and not their own goddamn rhythm section. Such a shame.