I just listened to Hey Ya again - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgvGjAhvIw

To me the drums have no cycle of 4, it's a "double time" beat, a cycle of 2

But I can see where people are getting the 4 from in the vocals -- there is 4-beat repetition in the vocals

But I would still say the song has a cycle of 22. That's the salient feel.

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Also a cool thing is that the "Hey Ya" background goes in 12 beats and then 10 beats. That actually supports my point. It's 22

- Drums are 11 repetitions of 2

- Background vocals are 12 + 10 -- I hear the 10 as shortened

- Main Vocals are something like 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 6 -- I actually hear the last one as lengthened, not shortened

So yeah it definitely has a polyrhythmic feel to me; calling it 4/4 and then 2/4 is imposing too much theory on reality :)

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I hear the vocals as a variation on

- 2 cycles of 12 = 24

- 6 cycles of 4 = 24

These ratios are very common for "12/8" or "12/4" polyrhythms.

But the second cycle of 12 is shortened; the last cycle of 4 is lengthened. Great song!

I dunno I clearly hear a four beat in the drums! Feels really natural to count 4 anyway until you run into that bar of 2.

The map’s not the territory though

Yeah I was focusing on the snare, which seems to give the song a lot of its feel

But there is a reptition of 4 in the kick, a very common beat of o . ! o . o ! .

Agreed, I would guess the concept of having a time signature is to make musical notation easy to write, and convenient for performers

But it's not necessarily reality

4/4 would probably indicate a large stress on the one and smaller one on the three of each bar.

11/4 would probably indicate a large stress on the one and small stresses on the three, five etc

I would play them differently anyway

Yeah, if you're going to have 11/4, you gotta have at least one group of three in there. Like, 5/4 is usually 1-2-3 1-2. Hey Ya doesn't have a group of three. It's got a consistent snare backbeat all the way through, so it's always multiples of 2.

Great way to check is count the beats and never let yourself go up to four, and say 1 on the strong beats. Takes a few tries but you'll get to

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1-2 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4

pretty quick with Hey Ya.

I don't think that this is a matter of definition. The song rhythm is clearly audible. The kick drum is a dead giveaway. On a 4/4 bar the kick drum has two additional quieter hits after the 3 and before the snare on 4, which de-emphasize the 3 and 4 in those bars. The 2/4 bar just plays the simpler kick/snare pattern from the first half of the 4/4 bar and that pattern repeats immediately in the next 4/4 bar.

Yeah I hear that, if you focus on the kick. There's certainly a 4, 4, 4, 2, 4, 4 pattern.

But when I hear the whole song together, taking all instruments into account, I hear a cycle of 22. There's a polyrhythm of 3 different tempos:

- snare is a double-time tempo -- 11 repetitions, everything is accented equally, it's driving the whole song

- main vocal riff, bass drum, and synthy bass guitar are "regular time"

(I'm a drummer and I often hear the bass and snare at different "tempos", in many types of music, i.e. one is half or double the other, or 3:1 or 3:2 -- those ratios feel the most relevant )

- Hey Ya, Hey Ha is half time -- 12 + 10

So yeah I can certainly see why if you're a drummer (and I am) you would count it one way.

But I'd say the whole song is playing with tempos -- listen to all his vocal ad libs

"and what makes, and what makes, and what makes, and what makes" -- this is double time, following the snare

"love the exception" -- regular time

"why oh why oh" -- doubling the double time

So basically I hear it as a cycle of 22, and there are various tempos and rhythms laid around it. It's a gorgeous texture, and what an achievement to make it flow naturally in a pop song

Another nice thing is that while the vocals do have the 4, 4, 4, ... structure, most of the accents are on the upbeat, following the snare more than the bass drum

First up, I'm more used to classical music (piano, recently more synths).

I don't think that applying half-time/double-time to melodies is a good approach. Rhythm and tempo (note lengths, really) in melodies are more fluid to get more variation and effect. When I listen to the song, most of the passages that you quoted as changing up the rhythm (except "Hey ya! Hey ya!") sound to me as if they are actually consistently starting on a 1 beat if you count 4/4 and 2/4, but not in 22/4. So you'd tear apart the structure that you claim is there. That feels like a contradiction to me.

Also, why am I discussing music on Hacker News...? I'll happily agree to respectfully disagree at this point. I respect your view.

It is a matter of definition. The time signatures all have conventions for where the pulses are and what the feeling of repetition is.

The reason it's mostly 4/4 is that the 4/4 measures sound self-contained. And then you have an abbreviated 2/4 turnaround.

So yeah, you could definitely notate it 11/4 if you want, but that would be a bit confusing to musicians used to thinking in shorter bars.