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Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by pavlov on Monday May 22, 2023 @03:15AM (#36028359)
> "Several years ago my father got promoted to some leadership role. In our conversation about it, he told me he had asked to get back closer tech, but his boss declined and said tech specialists are a dime a dozen. Technical leadership is very expensive to find though, and once you find one you don’t let them go back to the production line."

Ah, the foundational myth of middle management.

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by shapefrog on Monday May 22, 2023 @03:40AM (#36028488)
We are special and unique, that is why we were chosen not them.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by pavlov on Monday May 22, 2023 @03:55AM (#36028573)
I'm guessing the same story was told 600 years ago in Spain:

"My father, an Inquisitor himself, told me of the time when the Grand Inquisitor promoted him. Ordinary priests are a dime a dozen, the great man said, but it takes special skill to be an Inquisitor. And that's why you never let them go back to the pulpit when you do find a good one."

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by tnova on Monday May 22, 2023 @05:30AM (#36029112)
I’m not sure I follow the analogy here, are you implying technical leadership is committing heinous crimes against humanity?
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by Y_Y on Monday May 22, 2023 @05:43AM (#36029197)
Or cleansing Christendom of its heresy? Or showing in the wrong sketch, quite contrary to expectations.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by asdfman123 on Monday May 22, 2023 @05:50AM (#36029252)
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by pavlov on Monday May 22, 2023 @06:07AM (#36029386)
It’s a joke on the original anecdote’s timeless formula of double-filtered appeal to patriarchal authority (the father relaying the wisdom of the boss to the son).
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by fennecfoxy on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @06:07AM (#36042102)
Isn't there a matriarchal equivalency anyway? I always see this sort of comparison made. Any sort of -archy society seems like it'll go to shit.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by psychlops on Monday May 22, 2023 @08:16AM (#36030421)
Nobody expects the technical inquisition!
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by 6510 on Monday May 22, 2023 @09:04AM (#36030934)
I suppose that takes us back to "Beware of the Believers"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGgpGLxLQw

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by biorach on Monday May 22, 2023 @04:18AM (#36028717)
Middle managers are a dime a dozen. However a good technical lead - who can contribute to the engineering team's discussions _and_ lead the team are very very hard to find.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by urthor on Monday May 22, 2023 @05:54AM (#36029283)
Really?

IMO there's an awful lot, they just ask for mid 200,000s.

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by ambicapter on Monday May 22, 2023 @08:57AM (#36030847)
Key word is "good" here.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by jldugger on Monday May 22, 2023 @12:27PM (#36033502)
I've met plenty of engineering leaders being paid double that who are not "good at their job."

It's a hard job to do well; it requires you care about technical details but also deal almost exclusively with people. It's a rare person who naturally fits into the "extrovert engineer" role and corporations are shitty about training those who don't fit yet to practice the right behaviors.

Plus, if engineering is "design with constraints" then you are given the extra restraint of headcount and finances.

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by urthor on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @09:50AM (#36044271)
Where are these people located and how can I take their jobs.

$400,000k for dev + fun at parties, sign me up

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by jldugger on Tuesday May 23, 2023 @06:31PM (#36051685)
Don't even have to take their jobs. Here's one example[1] from the OP's former employer:

> The base pay range for this role is between $196,000 and $299,000, and your base pay will depend on your skills, qualifications, experience, and location. ... employees are eligible for discretionary restricted stock unit awards, and can purchase stock at a discount if voluntarily participating in the Employee Stock Purchase Plan.

[1]: https://careers.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engin...

Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by tired_star_nrg on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @06:06PM (#36064450)
Can’t see your link, it just asks me to sign into AppleConnect
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by jldugger on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @07:03PM (#36064978)
Aww jeez, and I cant edit the comment. Here's a working link: https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineer...
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by matwood on Monday May 22, 2023 @01:21PM (#36034137)
The most important part of your comment is the distinction between 'management' and 'lead'. Leadership is critically important and very hard to find. Ideally you find a leader who doesn't mind managing, though you're getting into unicorn territory.
Re:Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple by karaterobot on Monday May 22, 2023 @02:05PM (#36034613)
Hot take: I think good middle managers are more rare than good technical leads.

"But my manager sucks!" Yes, probably. Part of the reason managers have a bad reputation is that there are so few good ones, and so many bad or mediocre ones, that most people deal with bad ones their entire career. And, since a good manager looks a lot like leadership material if you squint, the great ones often get Peter Principled into being mediocre bosses.

But when you do find a good manager, you realize they have a very specific skill set that is incredibly rare and difficult to master. They multiply the effectiveness of everyone on their team, including those good technical leads, but also the juniors and seniors.