We end up considering people as 'dedicated' or 'committed' to some cause or other. If they are a workaholic, or pious, or a sports superstar, or a concert pianist, chances are there is an addictive personality that just happens to have gotten attached to a socially acceptable pursuit.

Meanwhile, the same people with a slight twist of fate end up in rehab.

There's a bunch of things where the morality of what you're doing will change depending on a small detail, with the main action being essentially the same.

Eg, if you dedicate yourself to exterminating rats with dedication and professionalism you'll be a hero, do the same thing using the same tools and attitude to cats and dogs and you'll be a monster.

Which is exactly how it should be IMO. We build the world we live in by enacting change in it. Praising actions in a context devoid of its consequences is a good way to end up in a world where everyone basically hacks the reward algorithm without any concerns about the results of that.

It is a semantics game. Drive, Focus, and motivation are just that unless they are maladaptive and detrimental to the individual.

These behaviors only become addiction when they run counter to the goals and desires of the individual.

I've smoked and quit a couple of times, and still get urges to go back sometimes. Meanwhile, I know people who casually smoke once in a while and don't get the habit.

People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome.

This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes.

Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact, realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is often a key part of recovery.

Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?

I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits.

I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover.

Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful.

There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth. Not a unique trope.

It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite.

I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka

It takes a community. It's not usually something we can do, on our own.

Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.

I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything, or simply understand how the world works.

In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relevant question is if the lonely 50 year old wants to change. As long as they aren't hurting me, I am fine with them choosing either option. What, if anything, I am willing to do the help, would depend on if or how much I care for the individual.

What do you think about your questions? It seems like you have on opinion you aren't stating.

For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I have been at it for a year, taking classes, asking classmates and coworkers to join me. Not. A. Single. Luck.

Now, I have family, successful career, financial freedom, enough health to be active, no serious character flaws that would tax friendships. Are you telling me a fat and bitter guy who have been living alone long enough to be rusty in social graces is going to suddenly have willing friend material, let alone romantic prospects?

Personally I am not going to judge him or say he should have just tried harder. You?

I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My thinking is more along the the lines that it is a necessary prerequisite, but not always sufficient by itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Im not interested in judging some random stranger. Maybe they should have tried harder, maybe they should have tried something else. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't. However, I know if they dont try, then they have no chance.

My advice to a friend or someone I cared for would be different. You can't let your happiness be contingent of factors outside your control. If you can't make yourself happy, you are extremely unlikely to find someone or something else to do it for you. If you don't like who you are, then you need to start there because you cant run from yourself. The bad news is that it is your problem to fix, and the good news is that it is your problem to fix. Success is not guaranteed, but these are baseline facts you need to accept if you want to have a chance at change.

You cant force someone to be your friend, let alone a romantic partner.

Since I obviously can't care about everyone, I would like to see a society that encourages virtuous cycles rather than downward spirals. Let there be regular public holidays with festivities that single individuals can enjoy without being awkward and that provide opportunities to reconnect with neighbors and meet strangers. Let there be a culture where if one is missing a cooking ingredient or needs to borrow a stepladder, the first impulse is to ask a neighbor for help rather than going to Instacart. This will give these neighbors a license to stop by and chat later without losing their dignity.

Collectively, majority that is doing Ok mentally is in a better position to boost someone who is not, without any single person getting overwhelmed, as opposed to someone who is down figuring it out on their own.

Have you ever solved a really hard problem? From my experience, finding a compiler bug in closed source tooling is really the only thing that has the same flavor. First, if you're lucky, you notice something is wrong with the compiler. You spend months and months trying to reproduce the issue trying to narrow down what triggers this bizarre edge case. You exhaust all of the straightforward ideas, sit at your desk and question you career choice. There are days where you wonder where ideas come from, and why no new ideas are coming.

Now my problems were, are I guess, small compared to others. It's sorta like finding a compiler bug, but it's in your own head. I went through similar roiling emotions frustration and spending a good amount of time being lost wondering if there's any way forward. Unfortunately, the broken tools are all I have to try to fix things.

I, as you say, can not know what other people are going through. they've got their own compiler bugs. They have to find their own balance of emotions and interest and paths forward.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess, maybe recognize that we all have blind spots and flaws. The parent poster's phrasing is different. The parent poster, and myself, and you have cobbled together a way to live in the world with flawed tools. You're seeking precision and clarity, and I suspect over a long conversation, you and the parent poster could come to some sort of consensus about what everything means. The phrasing is a side-effect of the person they've built themselves into.

Or, maybe, they're just a fucking asshole. But I'd encourage giving the most charitable reading. It's hard to decode the meaning, but I think there's some meaning there. Look for the parts that are useful, and discard the rest. Some of it is just noise, because it's a side effect of the person they built themselves into, and the person you built yourself into.

Specifically:

"I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions" (judgment)

"I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well" (justification that invalidates the man's suffering)

"Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it." (Pushing his opinion above others, to hammer the judgment home)

He doesn't know Mark Langedijk's mind and soul, and yet he feels comfortable desecrating the man's legacy.

There is a difference between saying you think someone is/was wrong, and denying their humanity.

The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.

It’s easy to see a pregnant teen and think poor thoughts about them without considering if perhaps they are older than you assume and married or they got rapped etc. Read about a convict and perhaps they did something horrible or perhaps they’re wrongly convicted, you simply didn’t know.

I assume that you have known many, many folks like him (and like me), and are comfortable being extremely and overtly judgmental.

Too bad. I looked at your GH profile, and I suspect that we'd find a lot in common.

Not exactly sure the advantages it brings, but never a dull moment, eh?

Anyway, what's wrong with judgement? Despite some people's insistence on it being taboo, there's nothing wrong with judging other people's behavior.

People everywhere have all different things worth living for, and of course there are ups & downs that vary across time and relationships.

Regardless whether someone has the capacity to be helpful or harmful, almost always some judgement needs to be made or absolutely neither one will be forthcoming.

And there is always going to be someone else to disagree.

Whether either one is correct I wonder who is supposed to be the judge of that?

I see not a word of desecration.

Looking at the story of this particular dying Dutchman, seems to me the only thing within reach beforehand were quite temporary solutions not capable of overcoming relatively longer term problems.

- Mark Twain

So your mileage may vary I suppose. And that's about all I'll say on the matter.