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Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by pfannkuchen on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:50AM (#35961154)
Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing.

Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind blowing.

Photography has probably totally destroyed our relative reaction to visual art, like someone who eats way too much sugar trying a sweet apple.

But now we seem to be running on cultural fumes in this area. It’s as if people still bought hand cobbled shoes for millions of dollars and displayed them pretentiously.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by etrautmann on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:57AM (#35961232)
Lol no. It’s an interesting idea but photography didn’t kill the purpose of painting on the 1850’s, it just nudged human creativity into new dimensions of abstraction and images that were not attempts at rendering reality. There’s no end of history, and we’re certainly not sitting at the death of visual media. The drive for art, beauty, culture, and shared experience will continue. Creativity will meet that demand. Yes many of us have seen a lot and maybe can’t predict what for new creativity will take.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:56AM (#35961215)
I don't believe classical style visual art is overrated. My local art gallery, the AGO, had a large exhibition on Caravaggio a few years ago and I remember seeing the shocked expressions on the majority of the visitors.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by dagw on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:26AM (#35961578)
had a large exhibition on Caravaggio

What is interesting and telling is that they showed a 'name' like Caravaggio, and not any of the countless contemporary painters who are every bit is technically skilled as Caravaggio was. If the classical visual style was still relevant in itself, every art gallery would be showing off those contemporary artists.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:46AM (#35961837)
Which 'contemporary artists' still paint in the classical style? I can't think of any.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by dagw on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:57AM (#35961972)
Go visit some of the top art academies around the world. There are still schools out there training people in the classical styles.

The fact that you can't really think of any artists or ever see their work out in the world kind of proves my points.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:59AM (#35962017)
Some of it must have been uploaded onto the internet. Are you sure there aren't any examples you can link?
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:12AM (#35962152)
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/contemporary-classical-painti...

However, I've not got a horse in this "classical is overrated" race.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:03AM (#35962827)
Thanks for the link.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by Bran_son on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:21AM (#35962287)
By this standard, Beethoven's 9th Symphony is also no longer "relevant".

The first to do something are remembered, those who come after must be significantly better or different to be recognized. If someone wants to see Caravaggio's style, they are likely to simply see Caravaggio - it's simply name recognition, nothing to do with the "relevancy" of the style itself, whatever that means (Popularity? Or a self-fulfilling justification for whatever style the art world elite is pushing?)

And there are in fact newer artists with name recognition that painted in a representational style (but not the exact same style), e.g. Dali, Frazetta, Giger, Beksiński.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by dagw on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:32AM (#35962418)
You're missing my point. People like Beethoven because it's Beethoven, they're on the whole not interested in new music that sounds a bit like Beethoven. If you're a contemporary musician and composer you're going to have a very hard time making a successful career out of composing and performing new music in the classical and romantic style.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by Bran_son on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:39AM (#35962507)
I thought we were talking about relevancy of the style, not how difficult it is to make a living competing with Beethoven. If people still turn up in droves to perform and listen to Beethoven, that seems very "relevant" to me.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by pfannkuchen on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:14AM (#35961428)
There is social pressure to have this reaction to appear cultured, which is a bit of a confounder.

Not knocking the skill involved, being a high fidelity human rendering engine takes a lifetime of dedication as well as a base level of natural talent which very few possess.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by MichaelZuo on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:48AM (#35961877)
I feel pretty confident in my ability to see through people that are faking it.

Maybe I am exaggerating my perceptiveness, but being shocked by Caravaggio paintings is not at all uncommon.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by intelVISA on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:03AM (#35962056)
I liken camera to art as (recent) ML is to code.

The machine may threaten to usurp the mass market but the few, skilled organics will always, hopefully, have artisanal works to sell.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by antiterra on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:50AM (#35961900)
I think it’s likely you’re projecting your personal experience onto others. I knew someone who was obsessed with the Red Room by Matisse. He was in no way pretentious or academic in inclination, but something about the actual painting itself entranced him and he could disappear into it for long periods of time. I honestly don’t know what was so powerful about it for him, but he was clearly having a genuine experience different than mine. Authoritatively providing my conjecture regarding his ‘relative reaction’ would be immensely pompous.

Art is more than technique, the music performances that move us are very often not the absolute highest level of virtuosity. Photographs were incredibly common in my lifetime, but I was still very strongly affected by paintings on books, album covers and in museums.

Further, non-representative visual art has a rich history. You merely have to look at the amazing art produced out of Islamic aniconism.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by mc32 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:10AM (#35962129)
It's not unique to art, nor does it speak to its importance. You could easily find someone who stares at ants for hours on end. What does it prove?

I think we have to understand its meaning and impact on a societal level and determine its usefulness or uselessness. Not all art is useful and not all art is useless but some are one or the other.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:33AM (#35962438)
Art really shouldn't be measured on a useful or useless scale. How would we even determine adequate metrics for that? If we look at impact we'd need to consider The Bodyguard Soundtrack as high musical art.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by williamcotton on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:51AM (#35962682)
"And IIIIiiiiiiieeeeeiiiiiee..."
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by laratied on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:55AM (#35962736)
Picasso was worth $250 million at his death in 1973 dollars. 1.6 billion in 2022 dollars from selling his own paintings.

Painters at one point were rock stars. Just like today's rock stars are social media stars and not a group of guys playing guitar/bass/drum/vocals.

Artistic mediums have their moment in time and then become niche, historical and retro once their time has passed.

Marble sculpture is no less amazing than in times past. That mediums time in the sun though passed a long time ago.

Just like if you go to an art gallery that arranges the paintings in period rooms, it completely obvious when photography became an up and coming medium and its effect on painting at the time.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by shadowfoxx on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:57AM (#35963635)
I'm sorry but this really betrays history, even contemporary history.

We could point to a number of contemporary artists that are worth millions of dollars for whatever they are known for - you might even consider them 'rockstars', regardless of how myopic I find the term - but headlines that make it onto the "4 big websites" is not the same thing as being irrelevant.

For every "Picasso" you can cherry-pick from history there's a Jeff Koons, Damien Hirst, Banksy, Ai Weiwei, etc - All worth millions or, at the very least, "Rockstars" in their own right.

The idea that Marble Sculptures in Ancient Rome or whatever had passersby standing in amazement compared to today is not accurate. People walking into whatever temple for whatever God they were visiting would be just as bored by the marble back then as you are of marble now.

What's really changed is that accessibility to these things have exploded. More people than ever have access to Art, Art Tools, Art Education, and new Art Mediums. "Art" is in no-way dying out. Focusing so much on the "Medium" is missing the forest for the trees, honestly. (Which is to say, modern technology and socio/economic trends have a bigger effect on the use of Marble than "Marble as a medium", whatever that means. Sculpture is alive and well, I promise you)

This is a little bit rambly because your post just kinda says, "Art changes over time" and doesn't, in my view, have a wide-enough vision of the "why" but this is all to say that like, as far as this thread is concerned, Visual Art, if anything, is omnipresent in our lives - not less relevant than in times past. If anything, the presence of "Rock Stars" is an indication of too few talented people, instead of what we have historically which is an ever increasing number of extremely talented people. I just don't know how we can say Painting is less relevant now when more people than ever are doing it lol.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by pfannkuchen on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @12:24PM (#35964098)
> People walking into whatever temple for whatever God they were visiting would be just as bored by the marble back then as you are of marble now.

What gives you this idea? You don’t think that constant exposure to having one’s human recognition instinct stimulated artificially has a tolerance effect? Isn’t it a bit strange that people put so much effort and resources into e.g. statues despite finding them as boring as we do today?

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by badpun on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @03:37PM (#35966673)
The statues were there for religious or social reasons, were funded by people in power in those societies, and helped them stay in power.

On the other hand, the statues were often painted, so they looked more interesting than the bare marble we see now.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by shadowfoxx on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @04:59PM (#35967680)
I'm having trouble deciding if your post is tongue-in-cheek agreeing with me or not so I'll just add some earnest flavor. I'm going to answer your questions in reverse order.

No, I don't think it strange at all that people put so much effort and resources into Art. The creator of the work gets a different kind of satisfaction than the people viewing it. These reasons vary from person to person but I've always liked my Highschool's Motto "Art for Art's sake". So it makes sense to put effort into creation. Personally, I love narrative and so when I'm creating sculptures or art of any kind I'm considering the narrative that goes into it. The effort is to achieve the narrative while considering tone and taste. A Nightmare Before Christmas would not be the same movie if it were all rendered as naturalistically as possible.

I'm not going to pretend to know the entirety of reasons people have for liking their spaces designed, but we do like shiny things and people can be particular about their environments. Yeah, it might be most efficient to put people into perfect cubes but I doubt the emotional well-being of most people would be met by this kind of environment. So, on that basis alone we have a reason to put effort and resources into decorating our spaces.

I don't really understand your second sentence. I'm not sure what "Human recognition instinct simulated artificially" even means. Do you mean our ability to recognize humans? Or our ability to recognize anything? Its a little short-sighted to view the whole of "Marble Statues in Ancient Greece/Rome, etc" as "Activating, artificially, our Human Recognition Instinct". Like, not only was a majority of the Art from that time lost/destroyed, and not all of the statues were of people, but those statues were humongous. David is like 17 feet tall. No one is going to mistake him for a human. Humans from antiquity weren't that different than the ones from today, at least no biologically/evolutionarily. So it'd be the same for them as any memorial statue is today - they fade into the background (While still providing some aesthetics, mind you)

What you're really missing by pulling out this single quote is something I touched on later in the post - Focusing on any individual "medium" is myopic in the conversation of Art's Cultural relevance, and the thread you sparked is just as marrow-minded. We're definitely in a period of time absolutely saturated with Art but we are by no means running on cultural fumes. Maybe the spaces you occupy are dead-zones but that's a personal choice IMO - Its beautiful and full of culture out here.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:04AM (#35962074)
I think you're misunderstanding the history of art. Art up until the invention of the camera wasn't simply to generate the most realistic image possible.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by Bran_son on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:12AM (#35962165)
> Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines

A lie promulgated by modern art as justification for forcing out all prior art styles and aesthetics, but nothing could be further from the truth. Have you ever seen photos like the following?

https://www.wikiart.org/en/zdzislaw-beksinski/untitled-1976

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajikazawa_in_Kai_Province

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Aivazovsky#/media/File:St...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swing_(Fragonard)

https://www.bonhams.com/zh-cn/auction/27421/lot/413/kimura-b...

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by forgetfreeman on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:20AM (#35962276)
Gross take. I generally loathe impressionist work for a number of reasons I won't get into here, but that doesn't change the fact that standing in a gallery in front of Monet's "Woman with a parasol" you can -feel- a light see breeze and smell salt. A powerful and (correctly) celebrated work done after the advent of photography.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by mk67 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:41AM (#35962545)
Ah, yes. Single-minded tech guys' take on art. Not sure what to comment here, but art has nearly nothing to do with replicating a photograph/"rendering". Photorealistic art doesn't count as art to me at all.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by EoinB on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:11AM (#35962926)
Oh wow, what an uninformed opinion. Not surprising, sadly, given that so many in tech are so one-dimensional.

Perhaps a course in art history would help you understand that visual art has never been solely about image reproduction. Even cave paintings were allegorical. My goodness.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by nathan_compton on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:11AM (#35962941)
Absolutely bizarre opinion, friend.
Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by shadowfoxx on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:27AM (#35963157)
I donno, this comment feels like saying, "Machines have really destroyed our relative reaction to the Olympics. Who cares how far someone can throw a heavy ball when a cannon can do it much better and more accurately."

When the reality is that people are still very much interested in the extent of human prowess AND other folks (often overlapping) are interested in the extent of mechanical prowess (We call those folks engineers and they are much closer to Art enjoyers than not).

There's no doubt that Photography had an affect on "Peoples" idea of "What is Art" or "What do I value in visual Art" but... so does everything? Being extremely wealthy or extremely impoverished can destroy a relationship to Art. Its not so linear as, "All people care about is the ability to render images realistically"

I feel like I could type a novel around this concept but I'll leave these seeds planted, for now.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by twobitshifter on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:51AM (#35963538)
A) Photography is visual art

B) What an artist produces with a rendering engine will be starkly different from that of an amateur with the same engine. Art isn’t medium or technology.

Re:Artists must be allowed to make bad work by p_j_w on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @01:35PM (#35965125)
>Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing.

If this were true then the Impressionism movement would never have come after the Renaissance. But it's not, there's more to visual art than just reproducing what we see with our eyes.