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Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by eimrine on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:14AM (#35960190)
When you drink your coffee without caffeine in your 30 for escaping a harm from caffeine, but end up with Parkinson in your 60+.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by coldtea on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:36AM (#35960378)
Never exchange the "devil you know", especially if it's natural and has been used for centuries by billions, for some novel lab-made crap, proprietary owned, and marketed to death.

Not to mention when getting it has been the whole point of drinking coffee in the first place.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by criley2 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:23AM (#35960852)
This is a rather explicit use of the Naturalistic Fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by bronson on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:28AM (#35960910)
"The naturalistic fallacy should not be confused with the appeal to nature..." (3rd paragraph in your link)
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by criley2 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:48AM (#35961138)
Further down the article it explains that the terms have been used interchangeable for a long time. Language is a funny thing.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by JoeyPriceless on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:57AM (#35961229)
The more relevant article for those who are curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by coldtea on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:38AM (#35961724)
Note how there is no actual substance to the classification as "fallacy". In general, it only makes sense if it condemned some absolute claim that "anything natural is better than anything man made". But people appealing to nature rarely if ever claim that - even when they appear to be making that argument, it's because they generalize.

What they actually mean is that something natural will tend to be better - and there's nuance about why that might be so (having benefitted from evolutionary pressure and adaptation, a thing empirically tested and shown working, more effortessly fitting to our biology, and so on). Of course we're talking of man-made stuff thus-far, not some futuristic utopia where we know how to make everything better.

So unless the claim is "all natural things are always better", it's doubtful how the "fallacy" accusation actually applies in real life arguments. Does it address the claim that "X is better _because_ it is natural"? Well, doesn't that being the case or not, depend on the quality of the specific non-natural alternatives to X?

If those aren't any good, then X is indeed better not by chance, but precisely because it's natural. That is, because it had millions of years to evolve, millenia to be used and tested by humans, and so on, and it had all sort of evolutionary pressures to improve it.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:08AM (#35961343)
I don’t think GP is making a moral argument. It seems more they are arguing that novel techniques lead to novel consequences, which could be harmful. GP assesses the potential risks outweigh the benefits of a new process when a process with known consequences exists.

If their argument is not about morality but instead about risk avoidance, would it still be fallacious reasoning? They could even still be wrong (because they incorrectly calculated the risks) without suffering a fallacy, right?

I am genuinely asking. I don’t know the answer.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by coldtea on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:19AM (#35961499)
It's rather good advice, based on massive real-world empirical testing by billions for centuries (which would have uncovered statistically significant adverse issues way sooner), the Lindy effect, plus a basic understanding of profit motives and of the fast-track cavalier way lab-made substitutes get into the market.

Not to mention that the use of fallacy listings is the lowest form of argumentation (or, in any case, close).

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by maxerickson on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:25AM (#35960275)
Fortunately it's a big increase in relative risk and not absolute risk:

By 2021, 279 of the Camp Lejeune veterans, or 0.33%, had developed Parkinson’s versus 151 of those at Camp Pendleton, or 0.21%. After adjusting for differences in age, sex, race, and ethnicity, the scientists found veterans from Camp Lejeune had a 70% higher rate of Parkinson’s disease than the Camp Pendleton group.

I guess it can be encouraging news for some people. My mom died with Parkinson's and I've almost certainly had less exposure to TCE than she did. I'm aware that there isn't really a known genetic link, it's just nice to occasionally see evidence that it can be exposure related. The increase in prevalence mentioned in the article isn't good, but that can be due to better techniques for diagnosing it.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by hgsgm on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:39AM (#35960405)
1 in 1000 increase in lifetime risk of something horrible, from one source, is pretty bad, if there are many similarly dangerous sources.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dist-epoch on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @07:55AM (#35960557)
Why would you drink coffee if not for the caffeine.

It's not exactly the most delicious drink.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by quickthrower2 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:01AM (#35960612)
Have you not had coffee with fresh ground beans less than 4 weeks after roast? If not get to your nearest real coffee shop pronto!
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by prepend on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:25AM (#35960877)
I have and it’s nice.

Would not drink it if not for the caffeine.

The history of coffee is interesting to me. Although I don’t have a link, coffee was introduced to addict populations to facilitate trade. It’s funny that trading companies were key to the adoption of tea and coffee consumptions so they had a commodity that they could trade across the world. It’s kind of like oil in that the world needs lots of it and there’s money to be made in production and transport.

Or it could be that people just really like tea and coffee and the trading companies just met the unrealized need.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dist-epoch on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:48AM (#35961139)
> addict populations to facilitate trade

That's a bit of a stretch. You could say that about any popular products - smartphones, soap, ...

Some say the industrial revolution was facilitated by the switch of Western people from alcohol based drinks to caffeine based ones.

> Those who drank coffee instead of alcohol began the day alert and stimulated, rather than relaxed and mildly inebriated, and the quality and quantity of their work improved … Western Europe began to emerge from an alcoholic haze that had lasted for centuries.”

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by asah on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:12AM (#35960730)
can confirm. Decent fresh beans are the key.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by astura on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:11AM (#35960713)
I don't understand this - If you don't enjoy the experience of drinking coffee, and just want the caffeine, then why not just take a caffeine pill?
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by kadoban on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:33AM (#35960963)
Caffeine pills it's a bit easy to unconciously take too much and get all jittery, and it's not really spread out enough.

Optimal consumption of caffeine seems to be a decent-sized initial intake, then smaller doses over time to maintain (eg take a few more sips). There's no good way to do that with pills.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by bumby on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:00AM (#35961273)
How confident are you in the dosage in each cup of coffee?
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by kadoban on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:08AM (#35961355)
Fairly confident, within 2x or so.

But it barely matters, it's not like I'd inject the whole cup into my veins and then see what happens.

If the caffeine was too high (within reasonable variations), you'd notice and slow down consumption before it mattered. If it's too low, you can just drink more. You can do it by feel, which is I think what just about everyone does.

Some of it might be placebo, but if so I'm not sure it changes anything really, since the goal is just to feel a certain way anyway.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dist-epoch on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:44AM (#35961087)
Or you could drink an energy drink/sugar free cola instead.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by xenonite on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:19AM (#35963041)
No, the chemical compounds of those can have quite adverse effects. Sweeteners are linked with insuline problems.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by mchannon on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:45AM (#35961097)
It’s the reverse. People wanted decaffeinated coffee and the TCE stayed for the ride.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by mrob on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:00AM (#35961279)
Whole coffee has a well established safety record for long term use. Pure caffeine at the doses coffee drinkers use, less so. There might be other unidentified chemicals in whole coffee that interact with the caffeine in some way to modify its safety.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:14AM (#35961429)
I drink decaf, and I mostly agree with you.

I drink it because when I need caffeine, decaf has enough for me. When younger, I drank it to fit in.

With enough sugar and milk, it tastes great, but so would anything. I am sure high-end coffee is great, but it’s never worth the effort to me, so I don’t know about that.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by NegativeK on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @10:49AM (#35962655)
It's clearly a matter of opinion.

I've dropped caffeine but still really like good coffee, so I'll occasionally go out and get a cup of decaf.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by criddell on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @08:01AM (#35960613)
It's worth noting that almost all decaffeinated coffee is made using water as the solvent. Even 30 years ago this was true.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by kranke155 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:08AM (#35961350)
So what decaf isn’t ?
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by dontwearitout on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:36AM (#35961687)
Citation needed, swiss water decaf isn't the only type of decaf on the shelves at my local grocery store.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by nicksergeant on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:41AM (#35961757)
This isn't really true, there are a few different methods to decaffeinating coffee beans:

"Like regular coffee, decaf coffee begins as green, unroasted beans. The hard beans are warmed and soaked in liquid to dissolve and remove the caffeine in one of four ways: using water alone, using a mixture of water and solvents (most commonly methylene chloride or ethyl acetate) applied either directly or indirectly, or using water and “supercritical carbon dioxide.”"

-> https://www.ncausa.org/Decaffeinated-Coffee

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by nicksergeant on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:46AM (#35961842)
We drink a lot of decaf and I email roasters before ordering to see what method they use (even though it's stated that methylene chloride is "totally safe"). It seems most commercially available beans are processed via this company: https://en.descamex.com.mx/ (which does both: https://en.descamex.com.mx/mountainwaterprocess)

Even our local coffee roaster replied and said they only use Swiss water process on their more expensive organic beans - the rest of their lineup uses MC.

Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by MetaWhirledPeas on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @09:34AM (#35961674)
According to Bing Chat they stopped using TCE for decaf back in the 70s, at least in the US.
Re:Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease by Alex3917 on Tuesday May 16, 2023 @11:49AM (#35963509)
Given that drinking coffee lowers your risk of getting Parkinson's by up to 80%, the lack of caffeine is probably doing more for your Parkinson's risk than whatever chemicals were used to decaffeinate it.