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Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by martythemaniak on Monday February 13, 2012 @06:53PM (#3587915)
It's tempting to dismiss this as just e-lebrity gossip, but I think that this kind of rottenness is probably more dangerous to the Valley than threats from Washington or talk of bubbles. If who you know and how well you can politic overshadows what you did and the results you got, then you're in trouble.

If somebody is an unscrupulous douchebag, don't to business with them, don't read their blogs, don't upvote their articles. Treat them like the trolls they are.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by ChuckMcM on Monday February 13, 2012 @07:43PM (#3588068)
If who you know and how well you can politic overshadows what you did and the results you got, then you're in trouble.

For me its just another sign that 'tech' is growing up. Pretty much any industry creates an economic flow, and the flow is a source of power (some would argue the only real source in peace time), and one can harness that power by having influence over the flow.

Back when the Homebrew Computer Club was meeting and Steve and Steve were there and nerds gathered at the ByteShop to see the latest S-100 board that Geoge Morrow had dreamed up, the total flow was measured in less than a million dollars a year. Few 'professional' power brokers even noticed. Today the total economic impact of 'tech' is approaching a trillion dollars by some estimates, with that kind of flow comes real power. You also get a different class of players in the game.

We joke about people who would sell out their families for a million dollars, however that number gets uncomfortably large as you go up in decimal orders of magnitude. 10 million, 100 million, a billion ?

The stakes are higher today, some people are the barrier to entry you have to get past. It hasn't been a "gentleman's game" for some time now. Kinda sad really.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by api on Monday February 13, 2012 @09:06PM (#3588302)
"You also get a different class of players in the game."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by cageface on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @12:44AM (#3588808)
I'm not sure. Sleaze tends to correlate with easy money. Before 1997 or so most of the people I knew that were in tech were in it primarily for love but when all the easy capital started flowing in suddenly the quick buck hucksters started coming out of the woodwork. Very few of the latter stuck around after the first dotcom crash.

Right now a lot of dumb money is pouring into tech because there's nowhere else for it to go. I'm seeing a lot of the same kinds of low class opportunists popping up as a result.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by ChuckMcM on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @12:52PM (#3590975)
I believe you are thinking about the rent-seekers. About that time when someone in business school realized 'hey, these guys are defining new fundamental concepts, if we could patent those we could just sit back and roll in the cash!' There was a tremendous shift from open disclosure of all the technology to 'just the necessary bits to operate' around that time. Comparing the PC/AT technical manual (with BIOS listings!) to the PS/2 manual? DEC went from publishing system schematics to just 'diagnostic notes'.

I had hoped that the open source wave that hit after the dot com crash would have reminded people about why openness leads to growth not stagnation but I don't think it has.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by martythemaniak on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:08PM (#3588137)
I think one of the challenges with growing up is that you have to work increasingly hard at preserving that which made you special.

As others have argued, "Don't be Evil" is Google trying to inoculate itself against growing up too much and always having a nagging reminder to strive to be the company they were in their youth. Perhaps the valley was never a gentleman's game, but it was (and still is) much more so than other industries.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by Volpe on Monday February 13, 2012 @10:30PM (#3588496)
Really? I remember reading about all the crap between Apple/Microsoft/Xerox (in the late 80s/90s) none of it could be described as even close a 'gentlemen's game".

Are we that different to any other industry?

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by polyfractal on Monday February 13, 2012 @10:35PM (#3588506)
Or all the recent nonsense about non-compete hiring practices between top tech firms.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by RegEx on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @12:06AM (#3588714)
I wasn't aware of this issue. Do you have a link to a recent article/HN discussion concerning it?
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by polyfractal on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @12:17AM (#3588749)
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by whatusername on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @04:09AM (#3589252)
Interesting definition of "tech" that seems to exclude companies like HP, IBM, Atari, Xerox and more that would have had just a little bit more that 1MM/year in flow.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by Clanan on Monday February 13, 2012 @10:50PM (#3588526)
It's important to realize that this is how many industries work because it's practically human nature. The article basically boils down to "influential people in tech can be greedy/power-hungry." I often get the impression that those involved in tech are viewed as more advanced or more noble than in other industries. This is false, and a dangerous assumption. Tech is not full of angels - it's full of people. SV people are just as capable as politicians of being greedy or underhanded or even selfless.

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." -James Madison

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @08:25AM (#3589867)
I think it is more serious than you make it sound. This article describes a racket that resembles mafia behavior.

“Pay seven figures a year to buy a corporate subscription to my newsletter and I’ll say nice things about your company, and when the press needs a quote, I’ll be there to puff you up. Or, don’t buy a subscription and I will bash you relentlessly.”

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by jgarmon on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @01:31PM (#3591143)
This is not a new game. "No one gets fired for buying IBM" was born, then later became "No one gets fired for buying Microsoft" on the back of "industry journals" that were more or less the dead-tree version of the rackets Fake Steve is describing. None of this is new. This, more or less, is the history of subscription trade journals in every industry for the last 100 years.

Model is thus: Subscribe to our journal, we'll ply you for survey responses/advertising. Fail to pay? You won't get reviewed or if so, it won't be flattering. Advertise? You'll be reviewed, and positively so. Oh, and we'll charge you for the report born of the analysis of the survey data you gave us. Repeat for all major players in a niche field. Welcome to industry publishing.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Wednesday February 15, 2012 @03:40AM (#3593587)
Yes, mafias are not new. The interesting thing is when someone publicly take a public position against (not many people do).
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by rbanffy on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:18PM (#3588163)
A game can be a gentleman's game, but only if we all agree to play it like gentlemen.

There are days we can't even disagree like gentlemen here. :-(

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by RyanMcGreal on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @08:08AM (#3589827)
> For me its just another sign that 'tech' is growing up.

For me it's another sign that 'tech' has some serious growing up to do.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by beedogs on Monday February 13, 2012 @09:16PM (#3588321)
In other words, stop visiting TechCrunch.

I'm way ahead of you.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by mbesto on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @03:36AM (#3589181)
There is nearly 1 or 2 stories a day on the front page of HN from TC.

Please people. Stop. Upvoting. This. Crap.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @04:38AM (#3589340)
I think the core of the problem is not TechCrunch or person X or Y. The core problem is advertising disguised as journalism. The solution is legislation against this. Famous direct marketer Dan Kennedy said that the most efficient marketing is always illegal, and for example infomercials on TV are now legally restricted because they were too "dangerous" for consumers.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by dconway on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @05:47AM (#3589481)
More legislation is almost never a good solution. It'll just encourage the parasites to get more creative and hurt the legitimate journalists.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @07:04AM (#3589664)
"Under the Federal Trade Commission Act:

Advertising must be truthful and non-deceptive; Advertisers must have evidence to back up their claims; and Advertisements cannot be unfair.

Additional laws apply to ads for specialized products like consumer leases, credit, 900 telephone numbers, and products sold through mail order or telephone sales. And every state has consumer protection laws that govern ads running in that state."

You think this consumer protection laws should be removed?

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by mbesto on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @05:40AM (#3589469)
I disagree. Content is a free market aimed at sourcing as many eyeballs as possible. Stop giving them your eyeballs and we won't deal with it.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @06:50AM (#3589631)
I understand your point and I am a big supporter of the free market, but I think consumers need a minimum protection against infomercials.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by patrickk on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @07:50AM (#3589773)
I think there would be something along the lines of would be what's required:

"Disclaimer: [$thisBlog] is an investor in [$company]"

...right underneath the story headline involving a company they were involved with. It would force "journalists" to at least pretend to be somewhat objective.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by tucson on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @08:17AM (#3589843)
Yes I think that is a minimum. Still the other concern is the kind of racket that is described: you pay or we won't mention you, or worse we will destroy your reputation (hitman).

"Or, don’t buy a subscription and I will bash you relentlessly.” Most big companies paid up and considered it a cost of doing business."

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by seanp2k2 on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @02:19AM (#3589016)
The mere suggestion that this story is true makes me want to just quit IT, go back to college, and go into a more honest industry.

Is this seriously what we're all working at? A complex power play to get yourself rich at the expense of any morals or integrity?

How much is /your/ soul worth?

We have real problems in the world, but instead we have a bunch of boys with computers trying to rule the world through their control of media.

Is the world seriously this disgusting and I just haven't realized it yet?

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by mvzink on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @04:15AM (#3589271)
No, the world isn't seriously this disgusting. What you are looking at isn't even Silicon Valley. It's a bunch of fucking bloggers jerking around. Yeah, there are a lot of people who (for some reason) give a fuck. Some of these bloggers even have significant influence as a result. But please remember all the people with their nose on the grindstone doing real work in the Valley and elsewhere. They are the majority, and they are the tech scene. Lyon's Silicon Cesspool isn't the tech scene, it's the blogosphere, which has always been a piece of shit. Disregard it, and remember, "Friends don't let friends read TechCrunch."
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by fossuser on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @02:46AM (#3589077)
Every industry has people within it that are unethical or try to game the system for their own benefit at the expense of others. If anything the technology industry is unique in how much good it has done, relative to the bad.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by cbs on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @08:55AM (#3589946)
If anything the technology industry is unique in how much good it has done, relative to the bad.

Every industry makes this rationalization.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by fossuser on Wednesday February 15, 2012 @12:25AM (#3593148)
No doubt, it's up to us to decide where the balance actually lies.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by cbs on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @09:04AM (#3589972)
Is the world seriously this disgusting and I just haven't realized it yet?

To some extent, yeah, it is. I don't just mean in tech, thats the nature of the world. Without some cognitive dissidence and rationalization, we'd all be neurotic messes. Or psychopaths.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by nnethercote on Monday February 13, 2012 @11:34PM (#3588626)
I read TechCrunch for a while. I stopped when I realized that I always felt dirty afterwards, much like I do if I look at a celebrity gossip magazine.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by gooorack on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @05:36AM (#3589457)
Google+ HN circle has replaced techcrunch for tech news imo.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by taf2 on Monday February 13, 2012 @10:17PM (#3588470)
or be bother with blogs that write about it... yeah, i want to turn a blind eye... yep - i'll do that until we hit 100K in revenue.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by sgarg on Monday February 13, 2012 @07:55PM (#3588099)
I completely agree. Would you trust Yelp for restaurant reviews if Yelp invested in the restaurants it provided reviews for? Of course not. Like you said, the only way to really punish behavior like this is to stop using their product.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by droithomme on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:29PM (#3588206)
Wow, interesting example of a company which the comment presumes is ethical.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by philwelch on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:01PM (#3588119)
Speaking of bubbles, the optimistic part of me thinks that this really is a bubble, and that the next time the Valley crashes, all the sharks and trolls will be reaped and only honest people will be left to rebuild. It's better to imagine it than the alternative.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by avoutthere on Monday February 13, 2012 @07:36PM (#3588044)
Nothing is more dangerous to the Valley than threats of force from Washington.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by sumukh1 on Monday February 13, 2012 @07:39PM (#3588056)
"As a rule, the only thing that can kill a good startup is the startup itself" - http://www.paulgraham.com/superangels.html

As a rule, the only thing that can kill a good _ecosystem_ is the _ecosystem_ itself

Edit: We live in a democracy. If there is something that stands to significantly harm us, then we should (and can) do something about it. A recent example would be SOPA.

The biggest threat we face is not from Washington, it's ourselves. If we become so torn-apart that forces from Washington can destroy us, it's our fault.

It's rather easy to focus on problems being caused from an external force, but there are often larger and more dangerous threats internally. That brings up back to the startup quote, it's easy for a startup to focus on competitors (external threat) instead of working on their own product (which is really the biggest thing that will make or break them).

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by jamesaguilar on Monday February 13, 2012 @07:42PM (#3588065)
Is there any rational reason to derive this from pg's statement? Word substitution does not work in all cases. For example:

> As a rule, the only thing that can kill a good _human_ is the _human_ itself.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by martythemaniak on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:14PM (#3588155)
I definitely see the similarities and would agree with it. Nearly every successful entrepreneur will talk at length about the incredible importance of company culture on success (as that culture in turn permeates through the product, customer service, hiring process etc). I don't see why the same principles would become invalid at the slightly higher level of startup ecosystem.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by jamesaguilar on Monday February 13, 2012 @09:24PM (#3588344)
It's plausible, but a corporate ecosystem is a lot different than a corporation. For example, the utility functions are different, the role and authority of leadership, the risk involved for each participant. Actually, it's quite a different beast.

Plus, I can think of plenty of ways external influences COULD kill the startup ecosystem. Congress could pass laws that make it much harder to start companies. Developers could figure out that the startup value proposition is not that great if you're not a founder. The market for internet ads could dry up (a significant risk to many startup business models). Big companies could develop techniques to quickly iterate on products rather than ceding ground to more agile startups. Laws could change that make it more expensive to acquire startups. Other industries could be created that make startups less enticing to young people. Taxes and security laws could change in a way that makes it much harder to distribute equity to employees.

Any of these things could kill the startup ecosystem depending on the magnitude of the change, and probably a lot of other stuff I'm not even thinking about. The idea that the ecosystem could kill itself also seems pretty preposterous to me. There are parts of the country where there isn't much of an ecosystem, but startups still exist. Startups aren't created because of an ecosystem, but because it is financially and economically advantageous to do so for some people.

Yeah, overall this view that the ecosystem is invulnerable from outside pressures and highly vulnerable to interior ones strikes me as fairly naive.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by xradionut on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:51PM (#3588262)
"We live in a democracy."

We don't live in anything close to democracy. It's hard for a populous to change a corrupt system when all the cards are stacked against the greater public.

Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by snowwrestler on Monday February 13, 2012 @09:27PM (#3588353)
Silicon Valley is not the greater public, it is a collection of very talented, motivated, rich people. It could be very influential in Washington, but until recently has chosen to avoid it instead.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by jarek on Saturday February 25, 2012 @08:07PM (#3634427)
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by ChrisNorstrom on Tuesday February 14, 2012 @04:18PM (#3591838)
And patents, and litigation, and bureaucracy, etc...
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by philwelch on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:00PM (#3588115)
Threats from Washington are the natural consequence of shitty, unethical behavior. Which really brings it back to what the OP is about.
Re:Hit men, click whores, and paid apologists: Welcome to th... by rbanffy on Monday February 13, 2012 @08:23PM (#3588179)
Not shitty and unethical per se, but any behavior that compromises the value function of a given ecosystem will cause regulators to step in, in an attempt to correct it.