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Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:40AM (#35850355)
> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug

EU laws are not like physics laws, you can change them. That's why so many people are employed in policy and law making.

So if it happens that in the land of cable freedoms they come up with something much better, it would be adopted.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:47AM (#35850388)
How do you know how to change the laws if nobody is allowed to try different things (thus innovate)? USB-C didn't come from nowhere, and it wasn't a given that it's better than MicroUSB - first the market tested it, then it became a standard.

EU laws have worldwide effects, there's no land of cable freedom anymore.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by vidarh on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:15AM (#35850617)
You're free to try other things. You're just not free to leave out a USB-C plug as long as that is the standard, and you will run into trouble if you try to play stupid games with adding power delivery profiles to your USB-C support that try to circumvent the goal of these regulations of removing device-specific cables or chargers.

If Apple "only" ends up offering a certification mark for USB-C chargers that have been tested with the iPhone and makes that easily accessible, they might well be in the clear. If they try to add power delivery profiles that are unavailable to everyone else, chances are the EU will react.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:49AM (#35850403)
EU laws don't expand beyond EU. EU consist about 5% of the population, 95% can have whatever they like. Yes, there's Brussels effect but that effect work when the trouble of designing or producing something else is not worth it.

Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:57AM (#35850457)
EU is the second largest market in the world. Of course everything is going to be made in a way that's sellable in the EU.

> Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)

We are discussing under an article where the regulator has sent a "stern warning" to a company. I don't think what you're saying makes sense. If I tried to sell my better plug in my home market, the police would come knocking.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by ghaff on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:24AM (#35850703)
You mean like how EU-compatible AC plugs/voltages are sold everywhere else in the world? Of course, manufacturers can have different versions of things for different geos--or just not sell in the EU if it's not profitable to do so (which presumably won't be the case with the iPhone).
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:26AM (#35850724)
EU exists 10% of the time the electrical plugs existed and were regulated in the respective countries.

We are talking about new innovations, not something used for 100 years.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:58AM (#35850471)
Not necessarily. If you come up with such a superior plug, you can easily have it sold on the 1st largest market in the world.

Not everything has to be sold in EU, there are plenty of things not available across all markets.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:00AM (#35850477)
No, I can't. I need to sell it on both markets to make it profitable. There's no way to have that large margins it could sell just in the US.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:01AM (#35850492)
If you need to sell it on both markets and can't have two production lines, I guess your product will have USB-C port and your superior charging port, like the new MacBooks having type-C and magsafe.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:03AM (#35850502)
And that's supposed to be good? I really don't understand this world...
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:05AM (#35850523)
It's good because until you invent this new cable, we can have everything work with USB-C.

Not betting on your ability to come up with a new type of charging cable is not as big deal as you imagining it is. Maybe you should come up with a prototype before demanding all type of charging cables be allowed?

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:12AM (#35850576)
And what do I do with the prototype then? There's nobody buying.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:15AM (#35850603)
This probably means your invention don't add enough value. Throw it away like all other prototypes who fail to create enough value to warrant a production line.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:15AM (#35850616)
No, it means somebody regulated a single connector type.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:18AM (#35850653)
I guess all failed inventors and entrepreneurs have someone to blame.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:21AM (#35850676)
Nobody is even going to be trying after this comes into effect.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by bonzini on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:18AM (#35851240)
Having three computers of different brands in the family (an HP, a Lenovo and a Microsoft Surface), it's certainly been useful in the past to be able to share a single charging port for all computers and most phones in the family.

In fact, USB-C and magsafe are complementary. USB-C is commonly used by displays to provide docking station functionality, so I can buy any display and use it with any computer (instead of having to buy a proprietary docking station that is different for each model). If I'm travelling, I can enjoy the more robust magsafe connector but I can also use USB-C if needed.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:06PM (#35854541)
IF you can't be profitable at anything other than global scale, maybe your (wholly hypothetical) invention is not that great.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:04PM (#35854512)
No they wouldn't, because you are not a giant corporation like Apple. Stop assuming your scrappy little startup and a trillion-$ corporation with massive market share have similar interests, this is like an ant worrying about a fence designed to block elephants.

In reality if you come up with some kind of better plug, you will sell to a specialist market that would recognize the benefits (dentists or musicians for example) and then expand into other markets. You could try selling direct to consumers but guess what, nobody would buy it unless it had connectivity with other devices, and manufacturers wouldn't go out of their way to adopt it unless it delivered overwhelming advantages at low additional cost.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:54AM (#35850440)
There are now zero incentives to research and develop better plugs in the EU since it is illegal to market them instead of USB-C.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:57AM (#35850458)
The rest of the world can develop the superior charging cable plugs and we can use this thing called internet to find out about it.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:59AM (#35850475)
Depending on the rest of the world for tech, research and innovation is why us, Europeans, are worried about these authoritarian EU mandates which can only cause us falling further behind the rest of the world.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:03AM (#35850503)
Can you give me an example of an EU regulation which prevented an European company invent a technology?

I'm familiar with the narrative but I don't know any examples.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by throwaway50606 on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:04AM (#35850510)
Gaia-X funneled money to large corporations that used it to market their shitty corporate services and that allowed them to beat actually innovative cloud computing startups.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:07AM (#35850532)
I'm not familiar with this. Did it happen due to the EU regulation which dictated that Gaia-X have to funnel money to large corporations? Which regulation specifically you are blaming this to?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:08AM (#35850545)
By definition, we cannot know the creations and innovations we are missing due to the unintended second-order freezing effects of regulation. This is why we need to be extremely skeptical of regulation and only accept it in truly important and non-trivial cases (unlike a damn charging plug).

There is a clear push from European elites for a halt in progress, aiming to maintain a status quo and preserve their existing advantages. As progressives, it is crucial that we fight this to ensure that Europe continues to advance and we don't have all to emigrate to the US.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:13AM (#35850583)
EU citizens are sceptical of the corporations and their ability to regulate themselves. Different attitudes, the American psyche definitely allows for better innovation and business environment but on the other hand in EU we don't have carcinogens in our bread.

It is O.K. to have two or more different societies, those feeling like they need more freedom for business can go to the US. It definitely makes the US much more competitive but a lot of people like Europe the way it is.

EU is not some company in Belgium, it is made of elected and appointed people from all the EU countries. It's not like EU making up things that members didn't ask for. EU creating a regulation is not like Twitter forcing a new policy over its users.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:19AM (#35851803)
> It's not like EU making up things that members didn't ask for.

The EU does opinion polls to find out what people's top concerns are. Guess what: mobile phone connectors, cookie popups, GDPR and all the other crap the EU engages in never gets anywhere even close to the top of the pile.

We saw what the EU does when a member asks for changes requested by their "EU citizens". It told the UK to fuck off and then threw a hissy fit when the Brits actually did so.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:31AM (#35851929)
Opinion polls are one thing, the EU itself is mede up of elected officials and officials appointed by elected officials.

If UK wants to block travel and resident rights of EU citizens and keep access into EU markets, that's obviously where the EU has to say fuck off. Non-British have opinions too and the opinions are overweeningly that if you want to be in EU you have to have the same rights and obligations like everybody else. No one is obligated to provide others with privileges just because they threaten to leave, they are free to leave and enjoy not being in the club. Which is silly because all those "EU rules" are put in place together with the British anyway.

Speaking if opinion polls, here are some of the latest opinions polls of the British public on Brexit: https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-o...

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:54AM (#35852148)
In democracies opinion polls are regarded as important because people's opinions matter. The EU doesn't care about them because the EU is not a democracy.

Even if you pretend the distance between voters and decision makers doesn't matter, here's a simple test: did your countries elected official vote for von der Leyen? You don't know the answer because the process by which she was selected is totally opaque by design. We don't even know if there was a vote at all. We don't know why she was selected. The MEPs were given a choice of her or nobody else. So please don't tell people that the EU is democratic or made up of "officials appointed by elected officials".

"If UK wants to block travel and resident rights of EU citizens and keep access into EU markets"

The EU granted residency rights automatically to everyone from the EU who was living there, and the EU still told everyone in the country to fuck off - including millions of those so-called "EU citizens" whose so-called rights suddenly stopped mattering.

But this is really a sideshow. The fact is, nobody in Europe was going on protest marches about USB-C or kettle speeds. The EU spends time on this stuff because it's made up of powerful but bubble-living bureaucrats who don't care and don't have to care about what matters to everyone else.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mrtksn on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:15AM (#35852319)
I was in UK when the Brexit referandum was held, it wasn't about EU granting residency rights or anything like it. After UK let EU, nothing was done that couldn't have been done when EU. That's also why UK's public opinion changed.

Anyway, you are entitled to believe in alternative facts. You are also entitled to believe that all EU does is regulating USB-C, that's fine. You are also free to believe that EU officials do things that no one cares or wants and keep getting elected.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by revelio on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:54AM (#35852726)
I haven't claimed anywhere that all the EU does is regulating USB-C, why do you think that? I gave several other examples of micromanagement.

> You are also free to believe that EU officials do things that no one cares or wants and keep getting elected.

The EU officials who create regulations are the Commissioners, who are not elected. That isn't an alternative fact, it's just a fact. I continue to be amazed at how EU supporters keep pretending this isn't the case. Can't tell if it's ignorance about their own political system or just too embarrassing to admit.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by mardifoufs on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:25PM (#35853054)
Can you highlight which alternative facts were in the comment you replied to? Are you saying you know how she was elected/chosen?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by anigbrowl on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:36PM (#35854831)
We can't know what innovations are missing due to corporate greed or the ubiquity of AC power transmission either. You're making the same argument as people who think Tesla had the secret of cheap and abundant wireless power transmission but the knowledge was suppressed by shadowy elites.

It's kinda hard to believe you seriously believe you might end up living in an Amish village. Perhaps you should visit the US and be surprised at how mediocre a lot of stuff is.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Monday May 08, 2023 @04:01AM (#35859164)
I know that if a corporation fails to innovate competition and free markets ensure other more innovative companies have the opportunity to come up and eat their lunch. That mechanism simply doesn't work with governments and regulation because they are absolute monopolies without competition.

I lived in the US and while Europe (where I live now) has pretty old towns and manicured lawns I know that nothing modern and innovative comes from here: iPhone, software, SpaceX, even Tesla. Largest European company is a luxury brand and the most powerful economy in the EU turned out to be an empty shell controlled by and built on on cheap Russian energy. California alone dwarfs the largest EU countries put together.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Moldoteck on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:29AM (#35851910)
Wtf are you smoking? You can add other ports, the law is about mandating usb-c. If you want thunderlightening port or anything you want besides usbc, like HEADPHONE JACK, you can doo this...
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:09AM (#35852267)
How many phones have you seen with multiple different ports for the exact same purpose: charging?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by TheCleric on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:15PM (#35852962)
I mean Apple currently has two...
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Moldoteck on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:02PM (#35854491)
I can name a few but why does this matter. The point is Apple can work around this for eu market if they want but at the end consumers will win anyway
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:27PM (#35854747)
I'm a consumer and I lost: I'll have to change all my charging cables with an inferior alternative.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Moldoteck on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:34PM (#35854811)
Why is it inferior? Last time i checked lightning can't do 240W charging or 40gbps data transfer? Just like afaik typec doesn't have corrosion problem lightning has, also type c is universally used across the majority of brands, heck even in ipads and macbooks, you say apple deliberately choose to replace 'superior port' with 'inferior type c'? Lmao)
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:17PM (#35855682)
Lightning connector is smaller, more robust being a straight male connector as opposed to some weird female-in-male contraption. The port is beveled so it slides easier unlike USB-C which catches and I always have to fumble around. Not as bad as the old USB connector were, with their legendary 3 flips to find the right orientation, but still.

No idea what corrosion you are talking about as I never encountered it. I don't need 240W to charge my iPhone, is't not a freaking Tesla and I prefer to prolong the battery life. I will give you the data bandwidth but I for laptops MagSafe is an even better charging port, and I hope someday for iPads too.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Moldoteck on Monday May 08, 2023 @01:22AM (#35858398)
So your only argument why type c is inferior is that it is smaler and slides easier and you deliberately choose to ignore all it's advantages... I had used both and I don't really see a difference in connecting a cable to the phone, both are easy to manage. Corrosion is a problem for lightning, if you didn't get it, you are very lucky, but you can find a lot of complains with a google search. You want to preserve battery and that's fine, I want too, that's why I use ADAPTIVE CHARGING that decreases charging speed at the end for exactly that. The thing is, if manufacturer wants to add faster charging, it can. Wifi is not fast enough for transfering gb's of data, especially when dealing with proraw 4k footage. Magsafe is faster, but you see, they still left type c, because some people don't want to carry 3 charging cables with them to charge iphone, ipad and macbook. And tbh max speed for magsafe is what? 140w? They could have done this with usbc, but at least they gave consumers a choice, a choice that doesn't exist for lightning
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by nickpp on Monday May 08, 2023 @04:07AM (#35859194)
> they gave consumers a choice

Choice is exactly what we had before the usb-c authoritarian mandate. Now it's only that for devices that are size-limited.

I am glad you are happy about your connector - but please understand I am not. I was happy with lightning and now I have to throw a bunch of cables away and replace them with an inferior (for me) alternative.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by cwillu on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:54AM (#35850443)
Like quantity, ubiquity has a quality of its own.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by viraptor on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:27AM (#35851315)
Apart from all the existing answers - usb-c did not come to the phones first either. It was available and tested in many other places first. And it makes sense, because if we ever need over 40Gbps of data, or over 200W power, it's extremely unlikely we'll need it for the phones.