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Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by stouset on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:14PM (#35834576)
I'll contrast this with Cruise, which are driving autonomously in San Francisco.

I hate them.

At least in the area I'm in (the Inner Sunset), they often cruise around with no passengers while waiting for a request. While doing so, they circle around idling at 10-15mph, pausing for 30 seconds or more at stop signs. It's long enough where just when you decide they've completely stopped and start to go around, they "wake up" and start moving again. I have personally been held up by four separate Cruise vehicles acting this way within a ten block section of a single trip. It is maddening, and there's no safe or reasonable way to pass them. I am generally quite patient and not particularly affected by road rage, but I'll confess that I have spent significant amounts of time fantasizing about an Office Space printer scene styled destruction of these vehicles.

They need to either find places to pull over (ideal) or drive like normal participants in traffic. Their current behavior feels disruptively slow (cars end up backed up behind them) and simultaneously unpredictable and confusing.

Worse, in other areas like Fell St., they drive exclusively in the left hand lane while driving 15mph below the flow of traffic. This actually causes significantly extra traffic during busier times as that street is often at or near capacity. It also disrupts the design of that road, which has a "green wave" of lights paced at about 30mph. Dramatically fewer cars make it through any section of road when you have one car driving 20mph that prompts everyone behind it to merge over to the right, further impacting the throughput of other lanes.

I've also seen acute instances where they completely fail in situations where humans would cooperate to solve an issue. In one instance, a left-turning Muni bus was unable to complete the turn due to a Cruise vehicle coming from that direction. The Cruise vehicle had entered too far into the intersection before stopping. There's paint on the intersection to indicate that cars need to stop further back, and the Cruise had failed to obey this. The bus was unable to back up due to traffic behind it as well as visibility concerns, and the only real solution was for the Cruise vehicle to move out of the way. There was, however, no way to instruct, plead with, or otherwise convince the Cruise to move. It had no place in particular to be, so it had no reason to decide to do anything other than sit in place with infinite patience and wait for everyone else to resolve the situation on its behalf. I watched as this completely gridlocked a busy intersection for at least five cycles of traffic lights before I got bored and left. I have no idea how they finally unwedged the situation, but I have to imagine it involved the bus driver getting out and having the cars behind clear a space for it to back up and allow the Cruise to complete its prime directive and pass.

Will these things get better? Sure. But right now, they are inexcusably bad drivers.

Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by inferiorhuman on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:24PM (#35834701)

  In one instance, a left-turning Muni bus was unable to complete the turn due to
  a Cruise vehicle coming from that direction. The Cruise vehicle had entered too
  far into the intersection before stopping. There's paint on the intersection to
  indicate that cars need to stop further back, and the Cruise had failed to obey
  this.
Yeah that tracks. My last run in with Cruise was towards the end of April when their vehicle (Gnome) decided to just wait for the light to turn green… in the fucking crosswalk. This was on Market, so it's not like it's a small, easy to miss crosswalk.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by stouset on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:27PM (#35834742)
In their defense, this is how human-operated vehicles act on Market too. :)
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by inferiorhuman on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:31PM (#35834783)
Well, at least in this instance, the traditional vehicles were all stopped in the appropriate place.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by bombcar on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:05PM (#35835158)
Human vehicles also eventually fix problems by bending or breaking the law if necessary.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by lotsoweiners on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:35PM (#35835421)
I wonder what happens when a police officer tries to pull one over.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by jonnydubowsky on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:19PM (#35836324)
I'm curious as well...are there any protocols in place for emergency services or police interactions?
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by macintux on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:12AM (#35837898)
Yes, there were some news stories about the challenges that public safety and law enforcement had when dealing with Cruise vehicles. The company sent training materials, but that’s as much as I can remember at the moment, I’m sure some searching would pull up hits.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by inferiorhuman on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:09PM (#35835192)
Sure, to that end my favorite Cruise anecdote stems from one of the Cruise humans forcing the car to make an illegal left turn off of Mission a few years ago. Granted Cruise's software still struggles with legal left turns, but still.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by bombcar on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:14PM (#35835225)
A formative experience when I was learning to drive was being pulled over to the right and watching a firetruck pull behind a car stopped at a red light, siren blaring and lights flashing, and eventually having to get on the PA and tell the person to run the red light so they could get through.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by iudqnolq on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:54PM (#35835571)
That's a mistake by the fire truck. You aren't supposed to preemptively run a red light to help them, they're supposed to order you to do it right away if that's what they want.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by macintux on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:17AM (#35837925)
This surprised me, and I haven’t found any information one way or the other about the universality of the rule, but I did find this guide that strongly implies you’re correct.

https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-truck-crash/articles/stop-f...

Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by namibj on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:37AM (#35840315)
In Germany you have to make way/not obstruct, though you don't have to endanger yourself excessively. So if the traffic behaves, you absolutely have to move out of the emergency vehicle's way traffic light be damned. Usually you'd pull over to not put yourself into a prime t-boning spot, but with good visibility you actually drive across the intersection to where you where going anyways, and ensure you let them pass.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by CPLX on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:23PM (#35834689)
Visualizing this situation happening in New York City, where I live, is causing me to chuckle out loud.

It’s hard not to envision the nearest construction vehicle casually lifting the thing into the east river while a couple NYPD guys laugh and take pics for their friends.

Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Friday May 05, 2023 @05:01PM (#35835112)
It seems to have recently gotten worse too. I'd never had a bad experience driving near them until recently, and all of a sudden every time I'm near one it's doing something annoying/worrying.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by stouset on Friday May 05, 2023 @06:00PM (#35835621)
As far as I can tell, what changed is they got rid of the humans who were backing up the AI.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by MontyCarloHall on Friday May 05, 2023 @06:22PM (#35835826)
Isn’t this because driving in a chaotic dense urban environment like San Francisco is much harder than driving in a giant suburb like Phoenix, which is among some of the most car-optimized, easiest places to drive in the world.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by ctchocula on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:35AM (#35839389)
Waymo also operates in SF, except during the daytime unlike Cruise.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by todd8 on Friday May 05, 2023 @09:58PM (#35837243)
In these cases, bus vs cruise vehicles, the bus is often helpless to fix the problem, and a stalemate ensues. As I understand it, bus drivers in SF are not allowed to backup without the presence of a supervisor (it makes sense that you'd want someone watching the back of the bus) so it is up to the cruise vehicle to backtrack if they somehow meet up head-to-head. Of course the cruise vehicle is like an Uber driven by Spock--perfectly logical and without emotion--and will just is sit waiting until the path ahead is clear.
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by seabass-labrax on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:49PM (#35837795)
> Worse, in other areas like Fell St., they drive exclusively in the left hand lane while driving 15mph below the flow of traffic.

Staying in the overtaking lane is against the rules in Britain; is that the case in California too?

Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by geocar on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:47AM (#35838119)
Re:Waymo doubles service area in Phoenix Metro by petre on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:01AM (#35838522)
> a left-turning Muni bus was unable to complete the turn

In Italy this would be resolved by the passengers getting out of the bus, lifting and moving the car out of the way.